Bridging Cultures, Building Connections: Interconnectedness in Life and Work, with Yoko Hisano
In our increasingly disconnected world, recognizing our interconnectedness across cultures and in the workplace is more important than ever. In this episode of the podcast, Andrew Cohn speaks with Yoko Hisano, a clinical therapist and healer in the Boston area. Yoko shares her experience growing up in Japan and in Texas, working in human resources in Japan, and in higher education in the U.S. before moving into clinical therapy work. She talks about her experience across cultures, and about engaging people in important conversations that relate to connecting. The theme of interconnectedness comes through clearly in this conversation, which Yoko describes as a spiritual theme. In a very simple and clear way, she talks about aspiring to inspire people to connect to what brings them joy.
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Bridging Cultures, Building Connections: Interconnectedness in Life and Work, with Yoko Hisano
In this episode of the show, I speak with Yoko Hisano. Yoko is a clinical therapist and healer in the Boston area. I met her some years ago when she was in higher education, working in student life at Duke University and I was doing some leadership programs on campus there. Yoko is a remarkable woman who talks about her journey around diversity and healing in a variety of modalities.
She has vast experience. She's a former corporate HR person, including her experience being hired by a Brazilian bank in Japan to set up an HR function for the bank in Japan. She herself grew up in Japan but also in Texas. Among other things, she talked about how she doesn't feel that she fits in here in the US but feels less pressure to show up a certain way here in the US than back in her native Japan because the pressure is related to generation, gender, etc.
She begins the conversation by talking about how the spiritual dimension of people is often omitted from important conversations. She also talks about ways that she invites people to talk about those things that may be most important to her, which relate often to connectedness. That was the theme of the conversation in large part. It was about helping provide a variety of invitations into the topic of spirituality as a way of connecting. That's what her work is about, helping others connect.
She talked about how building bridges is really a spiritual thing because we're not truly independent. We need other people to live in a very practical way. Also, at work, we need other people in order for work to be more fulfilling. This is practical, simple wisdom from a woman with vast experience, different than mine. I appreciate the conversation with her. I hope you enjoy it as well.
Welcome back to the show. I'm very happy to have with me Yoko Hisano, a new friend introduced to me by a very old friend and dear friend. Yoko is a different type of guest on the show because her experience is not primarily in the business setting but in the clinical setting as a clinical social worker and in other environments that she can discuss. I'm really looking forward to speaking with Yoko about her background, her work, and how she brings spirituality into her work for the benefit of many people. First, welcome, Yoko.
Thank you. It's really good to see you again.
Thank you.
We met a couple of months ago. It's nice to reconnect here. Thank you so much for your invitation.
Here's what I would say about Yoko. This fell down from the heavens at me. Yoko Hisano is a seeker who has a professional identity as a clinical social worker and practices holistic psychotherapy for adults who struggle with anxiety, complex trauma, and life transitions. She's originally from Japan but spent most of her adulthood in the US.
She has incorporated spirituality into her professional life as well as her personal life. I look forward to hearing about that. She believes that this fast-paced society discourages us from experiencing life with the whole body. The mind-body disconnect is prevalent in many of the clients she works with. I would love to hear about that. Welcome again. I certainly am flying over your background very quickly. Is there anything you might share about your background or your journey that leads you to bring what you might call spirituality, which we'll talk about too, into your clinical work?
Yeah. It goes all the way back to my childhood growing up in Japan. I went to a Protestant Lutheran private school for about nine years. I was introduced to Christianity, the Bible, and prayers. Having said that, I was in Japan where Japan is a country of Buddhism and Shintoism primarily, which is embedded in a way of life. It's not so much in the religious sense but it's in the day-to-day. Interestingly, in our busy lives, the spiritual component has been left out. I have been more aware in Japan as well as in the States how the soulful part of our being is almost always omitted from conversations interpersonally as well as in my work.
I have worked mostly in the clinical spaces. Prior to that, I was in higher education working with international students. I've been in professional spaces where people who really care about others’ well-being still didn't talk much about spiritual aspects. That's important. Prior to that, I worked at BU. I also worked at a bank in Japan. That was also a space where we disconnect. That is how I would frame it.
I feel like it's an important element when we're talking about connection, whether it be a connection to oneself or a connection to others. I made it a part of my important mission to bring it either in an obvious way by talking about spirituality and religion as well or in any other way that connects people to the feeling of interconnectedness if that makes sense.
Introducing The Topic Of Spirituality
It makes perfect sense. It's interesting, I've had different guests on the show. They talk about things that could be labeled spiritual in different ways. One of the themes that has come up is this notion of connectedness. Other themes have been aliveness, purpose, legacy, mission, and things like that. Connectedness has been a real theme.
I have a bunch of questions for you. How do you introduce the topic of spiritual or spiritual things into an environment that may not be replete with conversations about this? If it doesn't happen very often, then that means people may not be particularly welcoming when you raise it. I'm curious to know how you talk about spiritual things as you define them in a way that they're welcome, useful, and productive.
This might be my occupational hazard, but I really pay attention to how they talk about their life and their experiences. For some people, it's obvious. They say, “I meditate,” or, “I like to go to yoga,” or they go to church or a synagogue. Other people don't say anything about it, but they say, “I like walking in nature,” or, “Time with my dog is my favorite time of the day.” I see that as an opening to what makes them feel alive, connected, seen, or needed, all of these fundamental needs that we have which I believe are connected to spirituality because each person, creature, animal, and spirit is there. That's how I would phrase it.
Sometimes, I would dive in if they seemed open to it, like, “What do you think about this?” or, “What do you think about religion? What do you think about spirituality?” I can be direct about it if they seem like, “I'm curious to talk about anything.” You're right. Other people might have these barriers where they’re like, “I don't want to go to that topic.” That's okay. Everybody has their ways of being alive here. I pay attention to their body language and how they seem when they're talking about certain aspects. One of the ways that I often ask people is, “What gives you joy?”
Everybody has their ways of being alive here.
I can only imagine what kind of answers you hear to that question. Maybe you could share some examples. Are people surprised to hear a question like that from a social worker?
Yeah. It could be friends. It could be my clients or patients. Most people have to think about it. They say, “I haven't thought of joy.” Most of the time, they can come up with a variety of ways. I sometimes will give them examples like, “Do you like to run?” or, “What makes you feel giddy?” I give them, “It could be indoor or outdoor. It could be with people. It could be by yourself. It could be with your animals.” I even say, “It could be your job,” because some people really love their job.
A lot of people say, “I don't love my job.” I give them examples. A lot of times, people say, “It's not an all-day thing, but I can have this moment of joy.” It's good enough. We're never constantly engaged in one emotion or one sense. Senses and emotions fluctuate throughout the day. What I aspire to inspire is to encourage people to get to know different parts of their experiences.
What I hear you saying is that it may be too much to ask that we be joyful all the time, but if we can identify what brings us joy, then presumably, we can build upon that.
It's always about opening more doors and closing. It’s like what you do. You ask open-ended questions to see what captures people's attention in terms of topics or ways to discuss things. I like to make it as accessible, nonclinical, or non-taboo in my social circle and even with colleagues too, especially if I work with other medical providers, whether it be doctors or nursing staff. I'm not always asking, “What do you think about spirituality and religion?” I ask them, “How are you doing? How's your spirit today?” Sometimes, I would say that. I’m like, “How's your spirit? Is it up? Is it down?”
These are my words and I don't know if it fits, but I hear you listening for the spiritually-related breadcrumbs to see if there may be something there.
That's a good way to put it. I take a harm reduction or less dense way of engaging with a very dense topic.
Spiritual Connection To Leadership
You're bypassing the density or perhaps staying on the edges of the density. I hear several things. First is that you're caring and you're careful. It’s not careful as in danger but full of caring and therefore reflecting back perhaps the language that people will use. It's inviting. I feel welcome to talk about something because you're hearing me. You're not telling me what the parameters are. You're listening for what works. Does that sound right?
Absolutely.
Usually, on this show, we're talking about leadership in a business context. You are talking about a really important dimension of leadership, which is how we lead ourselves. This is a big question. You can do anything you want with it. What's the connection between these spiritual things effectively leading ourselves? How have you seen that play out in a clinical and treatment environment?
I really like that question because I believe that each individual is a leader in our own lives and our own circle of people that we’re surrounded by. Back in the days when I worked in the corporate world in the bank as well as in higher education and I have been in leadership positions, I was always mindful of practicing what I preach, but not in a preaching way but demonstrating so that people can learn what makes sense for them.
Each individual is a leader in their own lives and their own circle of people that surrounds them.
Every person has a different relationship to what leadership will look like or what feels right to them. I tend to be on the, “I'm going to try this. I'm going to tell you how it feels for me. I'm going to share with you my ideas behind it. If you want to come along with me, come with me. If you have your own path, let me know how I can support you.” That's how I feel leadership looks and feels right to me. It's a more relational way and more bottom-up rather than top-down.
When I led student groups and student leaders, I often tried to capture their willingness to show up for themselves in their own ways so that they could practice what they want to be when they are in graduate school, in business, or in post-college experiences. If you never practice, you never know what makes sense for them. I would always say, “Let's try this,” or, “You try this. I'll be here if you need me. This is what I see as a framework, but is there any other framework?” I took this route more so because I was working with international students. They come from different cultures, languages, and backgrounds, so the idea of leadership can look different.
Cultural Interconnectedness
Could you give some examples of how it might show up differently in your experience? Also, I didn't realize that you had been in leadership positions in the bank way back when in an earlier part of your career. Maybe you could share a little bit about some of the cultural differences and approaches, which I don't know if that’s the right word, and how that may impact how people interact with this notion of spirituality and spiritual dimensions.
That's a very complex question.
No one said it would be easy to be on this show, to be clear.
That's true. Culturally speaking, the interpersonal dynamics can get very subtle and complicated depending on whether it's a more collectivistic culture or an individualistic culture. Even within that, I find that different units or different sectors have their own culture within. Japanese culture, for example, is a very hierarchical society and top-down. There's the business culture as well as home culture, and then the school culture. Each culture has a different heaviness to it. That’s the Japanese culture that I am familiar with. You might ask another Japanese person of a different gender and different age group. They might have a different idea of what that looks like. That's the nuance I'm talking about.
It’s very much who looks up to who. Some cultures will say, “We're peer to peer,” but then when you talk to somebody, they’re like, “That's the head guy,” or, “She's the one who's making decisions. We're never going to say that. We're going to go around and talk to everybody else about the collective idea but ultimately, she's the person who makes the decision.” You won't even know until you're in it and they invite you. There are cultures like that.
I really believe that people change, evolve, or expand depending on where they are in their lives, the exposure, how willing they are, and what kind of cluster of groups they are in, whether knowingly or unknowingly. When I was in Japan, I was more on the straightforward, “I'm a young female working in corporate culture. I will listen to the seniors making decisions. I will follow the rules. I will have my ideas and I might contribute.”
People change, evolve, and expand depending on where they are in their life.
I was hired to start up the HR division of a Brazilian bank. I grew up in Texas as a kid, so even though I was born and raised in Japan, I had mixed cultural experiences. That was seen as a good thing because I would be able to read and write in Japanese and for other staff who spoke Portuguese, I would be able to assist if there's any paperwork that has to be done in Japanese. Most of the staff spoke some Japanese, so we would be able to interact. I worked as an intermediary.
Since we were starting a new department, I could pretty much try anything. I would be like, “What about this? There are a few staff who don't speak a word of Portuguese, including myself. Can we start our Portuguese training program so that staff within the company can feel like they're more part of the team?” I was always interested in learning in the training aspects so I initiated those programs. I reached out to the staff saying, “What are your interests? How do you feel you can contribute if you understand Portuguese better or if even at all?”
I did launch a lot of new programs and took on projects that a new hire in a traditional Japanese company would never be able to do. I was using creativity in that way. I was never doing things that they said, “We can't do it,” but I would be like, “What about this? Is there a space to try something and this would serve the staff?” Does that make sense?
Yeah. Perhaps they didn't even know what was possible or not possible because they were new to the culture too. That's so interesting.
If I were to mix in spirituality at that point in my life, I don't think I was too intentional about that but I was thinking about the space that I was in and the ways that I could help the staff or employees feel more connected. The majority of the employees there were Japanese-Brazilians living in Japan. They look like me but they were born and raised in Brazil and moved to Japan for workforce reasons.
I would imagine that those people, if they were seen on the street and spoken to in Japan would be expected to respond in Japanese and they couldn't.
Interconnectedness At Work
If they did, they may have difficulty answering or may not have been fluent. My sense was, “How can I understand their experience? How can I help them feel as comfortable as they can within the workplace?” At least that was my intention. Cheering them up and being goofy was one of the ways that I felt like I was able to use myself as a 22-year-old in the corporate world. Working in higher education was different because, at that point, I was more aware of how to incorporate leadership, spirituality, and bringing people together. My first Master's degree in international education was about intercultural communication, human connection, and facilitating dialogue between people.
I don't want to label in a narrow, constricting way, but make an association that when you talk about connectedness, for you, that's a spiritual thing, concept, principle, precept, or whatever you want to call it. It's a spiritual thing, connectedness. To support people from an HR standpoint in a corporate setting and to build bridges, which is my term and I presume that would fit for you too, has a spiritual component to it or a spiritual piece to it. Is that fair to say?
Absolutely. We think we live independently, but nobody lives independently. Everybody needs somebody, including all the services that we need to survive. We're not going to be building houses if we are working at a law firm or hospital. Even in a very pragmatic way, everybody needs everybody to work together. I noticed that when the business aspect of moneymaking or getting ahead was focused in any space that I was in, people forgot that people are people or people have emotional needs. People want to be seen and heard. People want to be appreciated. Without that, nobody lasts at a job. I've often heard that a lot of people think about leaving the job not so much because of the work itself but because of the people they're surrounded with.
Importantly, the manager too. They take a job because of the job. They leave the job because of the manager.
If that's not spirituality in a nutshell, I'm not sure what else is.
Incorporating Spirituality As A Therapist
That’s beautiful. Could you say more about the work that you do, how you incorporate spirituality, what that looks like a little bit, and how people can benefit from that? I'm sure it's a big part of your work to even talk about this.
In my work as a therapist, I ask questions directly about people's spirituality or community. I might use more of the terms of, “Do you have a community that you feel connected to and that you feel safe with?” I then might say, “It could be a synagogue. It could be a church. It could be a hobby group. It could be a community.”
Those are places of connectedness.
Those are my entryways. Besides that, it's a question about, “When do you feel joy? Who do you feel the joy was?” In the other aspect of the disconnect that I mentioned earlier, the mind-body disconnect, a lot of people say, “I have the symptoms. I feel physically yucky. I get stressed. It's my body that it's in pain and I feel this. I have GI issues. I have shoulder issues.” When I say, “Do you know that your mind and body are connected? If you're feeling certain things or if you're in pain, wouldn't your feelings also get rubbed up and be frustrated or uncomfortable? Do you know that it's all one thing?” They're like, “That's true.” It’s reminding everybody that there’s a spirit in all of us.
I didn't mention this. Prior to my job, I was working at a long-term care facility, so end-of-life work. Those were also the spaces where I saw spirituality every day. If somebody had dementia, they were very present. They were living in the present moment. They weren’t busy thinking about, “What should I buy tomorrow at the grocery store?” or, “Who do I need to talk to?”
They weren’t thinking about all the busy things that we do every day or what's next on the agenda. The less we forget about the agenda but can be present at the moment, we’re able to feel like, “There's somebody in front of me who's interested in engaging with me, seeing me, and hearing me.” The less you have the energy to do so, you also see the weakness in their spirit.
Culture: The less we forget about the agenda, but can be present in the moment, you're able to feel there's somebody in front of you who's interested in engaging, seeing, and hearing you.
In terms of energy work, I do reiki energy healing. Even though I don't see auras or anything, I can feel and sense people's energy levels. Often, when we're very sick and ill, our energy gets weaker. We're more inclined to go inward. We don't want to be opening up our energy and talking to people. Some people might still want to do that but it's a shutdown process. That's also a part of spirituality, how to live, how to die, and how to experience this planet.
You're talking about so many things. We could talk for hours.
I'm sorry. I'm going all over.
It's beautiful. It's beautiful. What I'm hearing is that the end-of-life environment is one where perhaps there's more of a readiness or willingness to talk about things that are a bit more spiritual.
A lot of people never get ready, to be honest, but you can still see it. You can see the changes in the way they're acknowledging. One of the things I have learned over the years, and you probably know this, is people will remember how you made them feel but they won't exactly remember what you did or didn't do. It's the feeling that gets left.
That's also very true at the end of life, those memory issues. They may not remember who you are. They may not remember your name or face. I don't know how many times I had to introduce myself and my name to the person that I spoke to three hours ago, for example, but they know, “This was a nice person,” or, “This was a person who came and they were smiling. They seemed nice.”
They also had people who they didn't like and didn't remember. Whoever this person is walks in, they make a face. They’re like, “I don't like that person.” Even if you ask what happened, they wouldn't know but they have a feeling. They have a memory that it wasn't a good experience. It might have been because it was a doctor or a nurse and they had to do some treatments that they didn't want to do. It could be that. It doesn’t have to be a bad experience, but something that they didn't like. This makes me wonder about what our purpose is. You mentioned earlier the purpose in life. What is our purpose here living on this planet? Why are we here? How do we know what our purposes are?
Spirituality Across Cultures
That's something that I've heard about regularly on this show because that connects to a more spiritual inquiry, if we can make that association. Forgive me. I'm jumping back a little bit into what you said. You started this conversation by talking about how the spiritual component or the spiritual side is often left out or missing in our fast-paced culture.
I'm curious to know. Having grown up a little bit in Texas and then in Japan working in a bank there with Brazilians, and then coming to the US and working in Brigham and Boston, there's a whole lot of cultures represented there. I'm curious to know how the absence of this spiritual piece, if I could label it that way, differs in these different cultures and these different settings. I know these are generalities. You had your experience in this HR role in the bank. What observations do you have about how this absence or presence of spiritual conversation or however you'd call it differs between cultures?
There's a lot there. In my experience, being a Japanese woman in Japan, and that itself is a loaded statement I'm making, there are a lot of expectations that I need to respond to being a Japanese woman in Japan. One of the things that I'm aware of is that in Japan, we don't talk about really deep important things in general. People talk about fashion. People talk about the weather. People talk about gossip, job stress, or food. In terms of the deep conversation around what you think you're here for or what your experience with spirituality is, it goes into, “You're so religious. I can't talk to you.”
I have been a seeker. I have always been a seeker of understanding something that's deeper like the unseen, the unknown, or the mystical world. For a realistic reason, I have chosen not to have conversations about these deep things. My close friends that I still have in Japan know that that's the aspect of my life, but I'm not always bringing it up out of respect for what their interests might be.
In the US, I have more freedom because I'm less boxed in like I am in Japan. I'm an immigrant. I am Japanese. From the outside, people will see that I'm a short Asian woman in a professional field. Even in personal spaces, I have met people who I have shared interests with. It could be from my educational background. It could be from spirituality. I'm involved in salsa dance and West Coast Swing Dance so it could be the dance community. There are fewer boxed-in ideas of what I can or can't talk about. I have gravitated towards people that I feel like I can open up and talk about and vice versa. There's a selection that is easier to have.
Does that mean you feel less pressure here in the US to behave a certain way than you did in Japan?
Absolutely.
That's so interesting. I could see how it could potentially be the other way. Perhaps there are more eyes on you because you're different, whatever that means. Does that mean you feel the pressure of people to comport your behavior and behave in a certain way?
I'm sure there are people who try to do that. That might be more so I don't quite fit in in the US. I'm an immigrant. I moved to this country when I was 25. Since I learned English as a kid, I have a different understanding of US American culture. My education in international education as well as getting my Master's degree in social work has really informed me of society from a social justice lens. That probably is different from a Japanese person who came here as a spouse, for example, in their 30s.
I have a different way of navigating society. Even if they wanted to label me, they're like, “What are you? Who are you? You look a certain way. Your mannerism is almost Asian-American but you're telling me you're not because you didn't grow up here.” I'm a combination of many things. In Japan, that's harder because of the social expectations that are placed on both men and women of how we're supposed to operate. Does that answer your question?
Living Intentionally
Yeah. It's interesting. There's a lot there. In the time we may have remaining here, I'd love to bring the word leadership back into the conversation because it has been a part of this episode. As a healer, a therapist, and somebody who works with people to live more fulfilled lives, I would presume I could use those words, what do you think is important for people to bring into the conversation around spirituality? What's important to be in the conversation in order to promote joy, to circle back to something you said earlier?
I almost want to say being true to themselves but that's such a hard thing for so many people. For most of us in this disconnected world, being true to ourselves often leads to not being truthful to our surroundings and the expectations that your manager, your spouse, or your friends might have. I know it's a very loaded point to say we want to be authentic and true to ourselves. Having said that, that's where we start, or at least attempt to ask ourselves, “Who am I without all of these status, labels, numbers, and all these structural things that protect us from being who we are?”
In this disconnected world, being true to ourselves often leads to not being truthful to our surroundings.
We should ask ourselves, “What is important to me? What's important to me might change in 1 day, 1 week, 1 year, or 10 years, but what is important to me now? How do I keep on asking that question so that I can stay alive, be excited, be inspired, and be engaged in all the things that we do?” The word of intention comes to mind. Living intentionally is more of what we need, I believe or I feel.
We often see people walking down the street with their cell phones and scrolling and how dangerous that is. That’s true even when sitting with friends. If you're on your phone while you're with your friends, you're not engaged with the person in your space who you most likely chose to be with to spend time together. Is your spirit there if you're somewhere else in your mind?
It is about encouraging people to use fewer electronic devices even if it's, “For two hours, can we put our cell phones in a basket and put it somewhere else? We can pick it up if we need to or if there's an emergency.” Aside from that, we should be mindful and intentional about what we bring to the table and what we don't bring to the table. If we can't, we can say, “I know that I want to be here. I choose to be here but I am having a hard time.” That's also being truthful and being honest about that to themselves and to others.
That’s beautiful.
This goes to managers or everybody in leadership positions. If your leader is always distracted and always on the email or the phone when you say, “I have a question,” and they're like, “I'll get to you. What do you need?” That's not going to fly. The next time the employee comes to talk to the manager, they have already had this negative experience. It's like, “I know they're not going to listen to me, so why bother?” They may not ask these important questions that they have to ask.
I hear you bringing into this conversation receptivity, openness, presence, paying attention to people, and really listening. I heard about a new book called Stolen Focus that's largely about that. It’s so important. Let me ask you this before we close here. If people want to learn more about you and your work, what's the best way for them to find you in a safe way?
Connect With Yoko
I wanted to say that I have a website but I don't yet. I do have a Psychology Today profile. Psychology Today is a search engine for therapists. You can type in my name and find out more about me there. Hopefully, in the future, I'll put in the link for the website that I have been working on. Maybe when it's ready, I'll send it to you as well.
That would be great. I'd like to see it. I understand. I'm redoing mine as well. It's a lot of work. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your experience. I look forward to our next conversations and learning more about where you've been and how you see things. Your journey has been wonderful, interesting, and different. Thank you for sharing what that point of view provides. It’s very different than mine. I'm grateful for your sharing your experience. Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me. This has been great to sit down, think about, and feel what inspires me.