How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability to Foster Authentic Connections, with Gino Peremans
In this episode of the Spirituality in Leadership podcast, host Andrew Cohn sits down with Gino Peremans, a men’s work expert and leadership coach from Belgium. Gino’s journey is both gripping and inspiring—from a challenging childhood to becoming a mentor for men seeking to break free from societal expectations. He shares how he went from feeling lost and disconnected to creating spaces where men can rediscover their true selves.
Gino dives deep into the importance of vulnerability, connection, and building healthy communities of men. He talks about the retreats he leads—transformative experiences where men step away from the pressures of performance and status to embrace their inner lives. But this isn’t just theory; Gino offers practical tools to bring this mindset into your personal and professional life. Whether you’re leading a team, a family, or just yourself, his insights are game-changing.
This conversation is for anyone who’s ever felt the weight of pretending to be someone they’re not. Gino’s message is clear: true leadership starts with authenticity. Tune in to discover how you can step into a new kind of strength—one rooted in vulnerability, connection, and your truest self.
Key Takeaways
Exploration of men's work and healthy masculinity
Challenges men face regarding vulnerability and societal expectations
Importance of creating deeper connections and conversations among men
Personal journey and experiences of the guest related to emotional expression
Societal pressures on men to perform and provide
The concept of brotherhood and support among men
Impact of modern distractions, such as social media, on genuine connections
Establishing safe spaces for men to share vulnerabilities
The role of curiosity and reflection in personal growth
The potential ripple effects of men's work on families and communities
In This Episode:
[00:00] Introduction to addiction and external validation
[01:09] Meet Gino: background and professional journey
[08:41] Gino's personal journey and struggles
[14:21] The role of vulnerability and brotherhood in men's work
[17:32] Challenges of modern masculinity and distraction
[22:22] Challenges faced by executives and managers
[23:25] The concept of a healthy tribe
[24:28] Building a sense of community
[25:22] Encouraging vulnerability and personal sharing
[29:02] Introducing Gentle Giants
[32:15] Practical tools for corporate settings
[35:32] Reconnecting with the body
[38:17] Conclusion and resources
Resources and Links
Spirituality in Leadership Podcast
Gino Peremans
Website: https://www.ginoperemans.com/
Andrew Cohn
Music:
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Transcript
Gino Peremans: I start developing, uh, an addiction. Yeah. Or is very intense focus on external validation. Mainly from women. Yeah. These days they would label it with sex and law of addiction or the law of addiction component. Do you find that men will struggle with that? That that's hard for them to do that And a lot of misunderstanding.
Gino Peremans: 'cause a lot of men think they need to. Perform or need to provide while this is not what women or what the feminine wants or not only.
INTRO: Welcome to the Spirituality in Leadership Podcast, hosted by Andrew Cone. Andrew is a trusted counselor, coach, and consultant who works with leaders and teams to increase productivity and fulfillment in the workplace. If you'd like to connect with Andrew about individual or team coaching. Leadership workshops or team alignment, please go to www.lighthouseteams.com. Enjoy the podcast.
Andrew Cohn: In this episode of the podcast, I speak with Gino Paramounts in Belgium, and Gino is a fascinating man who does, uh, deep work, community building and healing work with men outside of work, but also works as an executive coach and organizational consultant. Within corporations and other organizations. He comes from a background in experiential learning with Outward Bound in Europe and the us, but most of the conversation was focused on how he engages men, invites men into deeper conversations, into greater levels of belonging, and his deep commitment to this type of healing and growth and connection and community building.
Andrew Cohn: He's really apparent and frankly inspiring and inviting to me in some of the work that I do with men's groups as well. I see him as a mentor and a teacher and a fellow traveler on this path of healing with men and healing in teams and organizations as well. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Welcome back to the Spirituality and Leadership Podcast.
Andrew Cohn: I am Andrew Cone today. Coming to us all the way from Belgium is Chino, Perman, or Chino, depending upon with the culture and the multiple languages being spoken there. And Chino is an expert in men's work, in men's growth, in men's health, in healthy masculinity. He comes from the world of experiential learning, has done some.
Andrew Cohn: Lecturing at various universities, but as you said, you're quick to not identify yourself as an academic. And I'd love for you to describe a little bit about your background. Uh, but first I'd say welcome and thank you for being a part of the conversation. Thank you, Andrew, for inviting me. Of course. So we've talked about a couple of juicy things, but I, I feel like I need to start a little bit more at the beginning.
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm. So would you describe a bit about your personal journey and what has led you to, and you can answer that as slowly and incrementally as you like, or just jump to a conclusion. And what has led you to be interested in something like spirituality and leadership, particularly in the context of working with men, because that seems to be what your focus is.
Andrew Cohn: Absolutely.
Gino Peremans: Yeah. So I feel compelled to, uh, share actually two. Life tracks, so to speak. The first one is a more comfortable one, which is, uh, how good I end up doing professionally, what I'm doing today. So I identify myself with a coach and consultant or a men's mentor. And how I got there actually started around the kitchen table at home in my family of origin.
Gino Peremans: My mom came from a background of entrepreneurs and my dad was a welder. He was, he came from a worker's family. So I had the, the, the background of Marx meeting the entrepreneurial world. And I was always, when, when both sides of the family came together, I was really intrigued by, okay, they're always, they always seem to oppose each other.
Gino Peremans: I. While one cannot go without the other, the entrepreneurs need workers to produce, the workers need entrepreneurs to go with new ideas and ventures and so eternal, positive guy as I am. I saw an opportunity there and I was the intrigue evolved into, okay, there's something here that I feel. I contribute to, which is bringing these two worlds together.
Gino Peremans: And so I started social sciences. My first job was in consulting on HR change in the public sector. Then after a couple of years, I noticed that this was too academic and too technical and I really wanted to work with the component, the human component in an organization, in the institutions. And that is then where I started working for outbounds, the international organization.
Gino Peremans: I, um, was part of the management there. I worked in Europe, us so I traveled around bound. Now, 18 years ago, I then started my own company. 'cause I was like, I wanted to dive deeper and deeper into, okay, how is the human component influenced by an organizational institution? And the other way around? And actually on my path, it's been, if I refer to it, and this is my language, spirituality, it's been a deepening path.
Gino Peremans: A path of, okay, what are. The symptoms. What are core causes? Uh, why, why, what motivates people? What motivates people to change? What Mo motivates people to change in a sustainable way, man. And if I were to describe or give a definition of spirituality as I see it today, it's actually. Establishing a connection with your higher self or your inner self.
Gino Peremans: Uh, what I found in all the transformations and consulting and coaching that I did is people will only change if their inner self. Is motivated or if their inner self is devastated enough or fed up enough or tired enough of the, the life that person is living. Yeah. And whether you call that your inner self, your higher self, it's this connection of, okay, what is in inside me and what do I feel connected with?
Gino Peremans: What, what gives me the trust in myself and the people around me? That is what I would say is my connection to spirituality. That's the first track.
Andrew Cohn: So, yeah. And I hear the way, uh, excuse me for interrupting, but I hear you as like that's, that's a bit of a compass or that's a bit of a. Yeah. Motivation or guidance or there's a resource in there.
Andrew Cohn: That's the word I'm looking. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. And was there a moment when you said, so it was 18 years ago, you wanted to start your own business, you wanted to work more deeply. Uh, was there a moment, a story, an epiphany, a personal thing? Like why 18 years ago what happened? Or maybe for you it was a buildup of some experiences up until that point, but I'm curious what led you into the transition?
Andrew Cohn: There's a couple of reasons, but my
Gino Peremans: main reason 18 years ago to start just running and setting up my own business was balance. I felt that I was out of balance. My first son was born back then, I was spending a lot of time outdoors, uh, with groups, uh, working for outbound, somewhere in the world. I felt like, hold on.
Gino Peremans: What I'm bringing to the organization, what I'm bringing to other people's journeys is out of balance with the journey that I am going because I wasn't spending enough time as I wanted outdoors myself with my family, with, uh, my partner back then. And it was the, the self-employment actually came as a way to balance my life.
Gino Peremans: That was, uh, sort of the first reason. Another reason had also to do with freedom. The freedom to choose your clients, choose the projects or, or hold on. It's this illusion of freedom at the beginning. Okay. 'cause a lot of people believe like, okay, I'm getting self-employed so I get to choose my clients, choose the time I'm working.
Gino Peremans: But then the first couple of years it's like, nah, it's not happening. 'cause you want the business, you need to establish your business. So you take on more job than you want it. Finding or striking that balance has been a process of years. Not of like a moment between being employed by somebody and being self-employed.
Andrew Cohn: Well, got it. Okay. So you were, before he interrupted you to probe on something, you were talking about the really two stories you would tell. One of them was the professional story, the shift. Yes. Okay. Guys, the comfortable story, so please continue. Yeah, so the other one is my personal
Gino Peremans: story and that is more if I would.
Gino Peremans: Defined my professional story as the light side of me. Then now we're getting into my dark side because I grew up in a worker, a worker's class family. My mom was housewife and her connection with the family was with entrepreneurs, but she never had a real entrepreneurial spirit. My dad was a welder and union representative, and I grew up in a family that had, how shall I say, the vocabulary.
Gino Peremans: Around development and emotions was very limited, was very rudimental, was very, I wouldn't say non-existent, but feelings were like, you have the BA five basic feelings. And that's where the vocabulary stopped. Yeah. Uh, there was also the understanding around emotions and impact on each other and effect we had on each other was also very limited.
Gino Peremans: I was born highly sensitive. A highly sensitive man in such a family is like, was a challenge for me. Challenge to fight my position. On top of it came a brother. He was only one year younger. He got very sick at the young age, so he became like the. The child to care for it. I wouldn't call it the problem child, but the child that need a lot of care and attention.
Gino Peremans: And so actually I found myself sort of like an alien in my whole family. I was like, what am I doing here? I don't understand them. They don't understand me. But as a child, what do you do is you look for a love, comfort, and safety. How I found this love, comfort, and safety was to start creating or calibrating my compass towards, okay, how can I get this external validation of love and attention that I need as a child?
Gino Peremans: So I started pleasing a lot. I started caring for my old parents, so became two adult at a two young age, and it actually. On top of that came a lot of taboos around sexuality, around how you spend time with, with other people. And to cut a long story short, it actually, I start developing an addiction. Yeah.
Gino Peremans: Or it is very intense focus on external validation. Mainly from women. Yeah. These days they would label it with six and Law of Addiction or at the Law of addiction component and this, so the major shift there was about nine years ago. When my then partner sort of found out about the secrets and the secret, uh, lives and the cheating and the, the, uh, that I had been doing, and that's where my own inner ring path then intensify where I really got to, yeah, let go of the backpack of all the secrets and strategies that I was carrying and move into a.
Gino Peremans: More radically honest life, which is still a journey today. But that's sort of the other side. So as I said, I'm, I'm a coach. I'm also an an executive coach. In the executive world, mainly with men, there's a lot of compensating that executives do for the stress, loneliness, and pressure that they experience at work.
Gino Peremans: But when an executive would start a conversation about, oh, but I'm struggling a little bit with unhealthy or even destructive behavior. I would feel totally comfortable to have that conversation. Why? 'cause I've been there. I know how it is to live with all those secrets to hide X, Y, Z to strategize, like, okay, we need to scan.
Gino Peremans: Like, is this person familiar with the other person? 'cause I don't want them to meet because da da. That's where I then started developing this. I wouldn't say it's a skill, but more like this sensitivity towards like, okay, man, with whatever darkness that you're sitting with, you can come to me and talk about it.
Gino Peremans: I will not judge or I. I will judge like everyone else, but I will not act upon my judgment. So, um, and that is where I then started for the past couple of years, seven years now, diving deeper into the topic of mentoring men, mentoring managers that struggle with destructive behavior. And I think it's on my website where I said like, well, whatever secret, whatever darkness you're living with, don't worry.
Gino Peremans: It's like, you can share it with me, it's safe with me. We will, we'll find a way of the darkness into the light because Yeah, I've been there. I've spent a lot of time, way too much time there. It's my way of paying it forward. It's the.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. And I, I just, I feel like I want to just call out what a beautiful offering this is and about how you can meet people who often, first of all, they don't wanna be met there because they don't wanna go there.
Andrew Cohn: And my aunt is raised, uh, you know, like, there's like, I don't know what I wanna look at. And, and, and it's particularly in executive coaching where perhaps they're not bringing you in because they think they want to talk about some deep shadow. Personal crisis, that's not the presenting issue, I would imagine, uh, in, in most situations.
Andrew Cohn: Absolutely. And, and you can meet them there and you can open that for them, and you can hold space for them there both in a sort of a conceptual way and an experiential way. And, and I would imagine as well, with your experience, outward Bound, very much in terms of embodiments, that's another theme of your work.
Andrew Cohn: So you're bringing the, your presence to them and an invitation to them. At the deepest levels, which is what a beautiful offering, uh, you know, whether they know it's coming or not. When they engage you, right? Yes. You know, that it's like, well, okay, here it is. And how beautiful that you can bring your experience to support their healing.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. It, it really is like, it's
Gino Peremans: a work that I feel really honored to do, to meet 'cause when, when a man opens up. To this level of vulnerability. It really is like it's really beautiful and magical because we never learned to talk on this with this level or on this level of vulnerability with each other, let alone with another man.
Gino Peremans: It's, yeah. Sometimes I, I describe it as magical work.
Andrew Cohn: Hmm. Yeah. I could see it as magical. And I've been, as you know, I've been around in and around men's groups in circles for almost 30 years, and I've seen that so many times and experienced it many times just personally when sometimes I'm saying something that's deeply vulnerable, it's like, where is this coming from?
Andrew Cohn: Or I'm not even sure what it means, or I can't believe I'm saying this to these people. And something just, you know, it's, it's almost as if, I don't know, I haven't thought about it this way. And, uh, but it's almost as if like the angels are waiting. And yeah, if we put something into the circle, they come in like additional resources become available.
Andrew Cohn: I don't know how this is gonna label me, but additional resources become available when that level of honesty comes forward. Yeah. The
Gino Peremans: level of honesty, it creates connection between men. I. Connection on a level we then, we then refer to as, as the brotherhood. But actually the quality of of a brotherhood or the added value of a brotherhood is seeing each other in each other's darkness and pain suffering.
Gino Peremans: And also in the light side, beyond the talking about. Football or soccer in Europe or women or alcohol or, as I was talking to a man earlier today, he, uh, he wanted to come to the NextGen Giant retreat, and when I asked him for his motivation, he said like, well, the only reason is I want to start having different conversations with men.
Gino Peremans: I'm fed up with the superficiality, I've fed up with the status, and hey, look at Mia. Got a promotion at working. And he's like, this is not what live is about. I'm a father of three kids, two of them are daughters. I struggle to just find a way of behaving or to hug them as I do my son because they're getting older and, and it's those kind of topics.
Gino Peremans: It, it's the fear, it's the insecurity that I want to have conversations about. And I think that's what men's circles, that's what men's work is about. We're here for men who want to have like the different quality of conversations with each other.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. And we're, you know, pushing against these cultural expectations and cultural norms and, and I found it.
Andrew Cohn: Yeah. I mean, as you know, I, so I hosted my first men's retreat here in Santa Fe a few months ago, and, and it was just remarkable how, and I was reminded, I. It's not about what I have to do or make some magic happen, but asking some questions. Creating the conditioning. Yes, within which, holding space.
Andrew Cohn: Holding space within which real conversations can happen. And in a way it's refreshing and amazing and like, wow. On the other hand, honestly, I don't know if you experienced this feeling, Gino, but it's almost like tragic. Why do we do this? Why do we put ourselves through this? Why do we. Force ourselves into these narrow channels of expectation and tolerable and allowable behavior.
Andrew Cohn: Why do we do that? I'm not asking you to answer and defend the cultural norms, but I just find it's so remarkable.
Gino Peremans: Yeah. It's because we are easy victims of the patriarchy is one way of looking at it, and I don't wanna sound, sound redundant, but I think. We cannot underestimate the pressure that comes from this idea of everything needs to always be better and go faster and be more efficient and effective.
Gino Peremans: And I think the greatest exercise I do in, in my retreat is just for 20 minutes doing absolutely nothing. Being meticulously in doing nothing. And for a lot of men, this is like, oh my God, I just can't do it. There's this pressure to perform and the performance pressure, the performance wounding with men is just huge and a lot of misunderstanding because a lot of men think they need to perform or need to provide.
Gino Peremans: While this is not what. Women or what the feminine wants or not only. Yeah. And so a lot of men have have this narrow view of like, okay, I need to be the provider. I need to perform, I need to get promotions. I need to drive with the, the most beautiful car, the most, with the most bling bling, da da, da. 'cause the way I'm seen and recognized, no, that's not how it works.
Gino Peremans: That that's how society, and that's how companies want you to look at it. Because that way it's easier for you to. You're under control, but life is, is not about all those kind of things.
Andrew Cohn: I hear you talking about status and recognition and power, such as it is, or the illusion of power, the illusion of control.
Andrew Cohn: Yes. Uh, one of my, one of my old teachers used to talk about control as the master addiction. Absolutely. That's a drive for control. I. And the mixed messages we received as well. So I remember in my mentor retreat I was talking a bit about in, uh, Brene Brown talks about how, you know, with men, you know, like what are we afraid of and what are our source, our, our, our points of vulnerability?
Andrew Cohn: And for men, it's always that we're weak. The story she tells about the man who says, uh, it's very convenient that you don't talk a lot about men. He was upset with her and he said, you know, women say they want me up on that to be, uh, vulnerable and open, but I don't know if they really do. It's tricky. I don't wanna oversimplify this of course.
Andrew Cohn: Or, or overgeneralize. No, it's very tricky because the, the, as you said, we're victims of the patriarchy. Even as men, we're victims of the patriarchy. Absolutely. So even as we perpetuated and hold this position of power, there's a consequence to that power. There's detriment to that power. There's baggage and pain and suffering.
Andrew Cohn: Not that power. Sometimes in more
Gino Peremans: enlightened moments when I speak with people that are more into this idea of patriarchy, I always say like, well, if you're an executive, you just have to admit that you, you've sold part of your soul to the devil, right? Because if you're getting paid to give up a lot of your own.
Gino Peremans: Passions in life. A lot of your own boundaries and it's, yeah, if you really want to grow and become an even better executive, you need to regain that power over yourself and don't give your power away to an institution or a corporation. I don't wanna get too dragged away and this, but this is this whole idea, and I think there's lots of.
Gino Peremans: Addiction and power, but I think one of the master addictions these days is also distraction.
Andrew Cohn: Hmm.
Gino Peremans: Say more about that please. Well, distraction. Distraction is obviously, obviously everything that has, has to do with social media. Yeah. Taking this away from interacting and connecting with the human being, but it's also the, what was I gonna say?
Gino Peremans: The distraction of moving you away from your, your own purpose. Yeah, it's like, 'cause what men really want is, I believe that the first need or the primal need of, of a, A man is to belong. Yeah. We want to be part of a tribe and it's this tribe that is going to give us recognition, that is going to give us, there's gonna set us in, put us in our power, and a lot of men as the illusion that they will find their tribe in a corporation.
Gino Peremans: For an organization while what you see is the more responsibility you get into this. Organizational tribe, the more lonely you get because your support network vanishes because your peers become competitors. And so that is why I am, I'm trying to create bridges between the executives and managers. And men's work is like no real.
Gino Peremans: Tribes of men meet around the fire based on the basic premise of, uh, equality. It's like regardless of status, function of role, we're all men. We're all sons of our mother and father. We're brothers, we're partners, we're fathers, and in this role, we all face the similar challenges. And whether you're a CEO or a janitor or whatever, those challenges in essence.
Gino Peremans: Are the same. How they present themselves might be different. And a lot of these executives and managers that I bring them to men's work through the men's festival in Belgium or through Gentle Giants retreat, this is what they usually, day two, they start feeling it's like, oh, I can just be here. I don't have to do anything.
Gino Peremans: I can just be here, here and belong. People are genuinely interested in me are and, and they're offering me advice without hidden agenda or, and that is those moments because I'm getting goosebumps and I'm saying it. That's the moments you're doing it for the, the second night when I walk around in the men's festival and then it's meant, meant to business and we have our own fire.
Gino Peremans: It's when you hear the men opening up and having these conversations beyond their role and function.
Andrew Cohn: Mm,
Gino Peremans: now,
Andrew Cohn: right. So people showing up outside of their role and showing up more as themselves. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I also hear you making an important distinction between, well, lemme put it this way, as you're describing the corporation or whatever the work situation is out in the world as not being really, it's not necess to me, it's not necessarily unhealthy, it's not necessarily toxic, but people very rarely, if ever, describe their work group as a community.
Andrew Cohn: It's just that community. It's not a tribe. It is a group. It is a team. Uh, we're battling another team. Uh, maybe that other team is the next department or the next sales group, or maybe it's another organization or the competition. But there, it's, there's a tribalism to it. But it's not a healthy tribe.
Andrew Cohn: It's not helping me evolve as a man. It's not helping me heal anything. It's not helping me focus on what my mission is other than corporate profits, uh, which are not necessarily evil, but they're certainly not necessarily healing. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. They, they're not as healing as they pretend to be or absolutely.
Andrew Cohn: Fair enough. As they've promised. As they promised. So I'm curious to know what, what it is that you do, and this may be a very simple question or you may get into some level of detail, that's fine. But what do you do to help develop that sense of healthy tribe? Mm-hmm. It could be what you build and introduce and make.
Andrew Cohn: It could be what you take away in order to help. Mm-hmm. Build that sense of community and tribe. And I'm curious to know kind of how you do that so we can learn from that. And also. How will you do it? In particular with men who are coming from different environments where their notion of tribe is different.
Andrew Cohn: They come from a strict church or they come from a, a very, uh, narrow understanding of this is what it means to be a man with people coming from vast backgrounds. How do you invite people from such a broad spectrum into an inviting place? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a big question. Well, think about it.
Gino Peremans: It makes me think about the, the ground agreements that we set at the beginning of a men's circle or one of the retreats is I invite men to be curious. Whatever happens here, be curious about what happens. There's no need to judge. Yeah, you will judge everyone, judges, uh, but look at your own judgment and approach your own judgment with curiosity.
Gino Peremans: When you sit in in a men's circle and you look around, there's immediately people that you, or men that you go like, Ooh, yeah, that's a man I would like to get to know. And then another one you go like, oh my Uhuh, is that gonna be the one uh, I'm gonna talk to in the next coffee break? Just be curious about what's happening there.
Gino Peremans: 'cause we're all mirrors of each other. And then the second thing. I think is important is when I have the men introducing them to each other, introduce them from who they are, and for instance, I have them in the first day sharing their life stories with each other. Two lines, pride them, professional line so that they, because usually men, how to introduce themselves.
Gino Peremans: When you don't say anything, when you don't set a structure, they will introduce themselves like, Hey, I'm the CEO of this company, or I'm commercial director of, and then, oh yeah, I have kids and a wife and, and what I do is I, I just go like, no, just flip it around. And most of the time just talk about what's, what's your background as you just open the conversations, like, how did you get here?
Gino Peremans: Like, what's your purpose in life? Or what have you been, uh, trying out in the past? What is, what has been driving you? Other
Andrew Cohn: thing that I think, I'm sorry. Quick question. I'm sorry to interrupt. Do you find that men will struggle with that? That that's hard for them to do that? Okay, so well, yeah. They struggle with, '
Gino Peremans: cause I asked them, actually, there's two parts to the invitation.
Gino Peremans: First is a drawing. They really have to like sit with themselves and make the drawing of highs and lows in their life and then share it. The first part they struggle with because one. Not telling them how vulnerable I'm expecting them to be. I don't have any expectation about it. I'm just telling like, Hey, be personal, not private.
Gino Peremans: Yeah. Stare things you would, you don't feel ashamed about afterwards, but not private things that you go like, oh my God, if I need to share this now with people back home, they will be mad at me or, 'cause I broke a confidentiality rule. So, and then also, so they, you give them a container. But nothing specific.
Gino Peremans: And the second thing is men are not used to just sit with themselves and reflect over. Okay. And then qualify like, what's high, what's low? So they struggle with this part. Yeah. So my invitation is always extended to like, okay, take your time. You have your comfort zone, you have the story about yourself that you've been telling for all your life.
Gino Peremans: Go beyond your comfort zone for a maximum. 20% is the boundary that I'm setting. And I ask them like, okay, what is there that you haven't shared that much with people in your life or, so I give them the invitation so that they feel like, oh, okay, it is okay to become more private. That's the first part. You see them struggling, you see them
Andrew Cohn: getting distracted.
Andrew Cohn: I'm sorry I keep interrupting here, but I wanna ask these questions so it's okay. What I, the way I hear you describing it, it's almost if you're inviting them to speak a different language or an underdeveloped language. Alright. There, so there's really, there's no judgment on that. It's more like you just don't typically do this, but here's an opportunity to do this and and to practice this in a certain way.
Andrew Cohn: Does that fit? Absolutely.
Gino Peremans: Absolutely. And it's also. To prove them that the language, they have it inside them. When I refer to a gentle giant, 'cause this is also something like men always think like they have to change, they have to develop into, no, they just have to develop what is already inside them.
Gino Peremans: Every one of us walks around with a gentle giant inside him or her. It's just like allowing this gen giant, whatever form that you give to it or whatever image. To come out and to
Andrew Cohn: develop more. And when I hear you say that, I must say that I feel such a sense of relief just personally. Yeah. As a man. It's like, oh wait, I can just, I just need to allow that.
Andrew Cohn: I don't need, I said develop it and build and train and, and, and, you know, get up at sunrise and run 10 miles to create this. No, no, no, no. It's there. Yeah. The get getting up and morning practice
Gino Peremans: is gonna help you to allow yourself to just liberate a gentle diet that is in you. Absolutely,
Andrew Cohn: but it's not something that needs to be made and worked at and no steady, another expectation of striving.
Andrew Cohn: There you go. Lump. Just be,
Gino Peremans: just be, allow yourself to have more time to inner. Yeah. The inner ring, as I call it, and just allow, look at, okay, what is, what is in there? What is suppressed? What is repressed? What is it that I don't want to look at? What is, uh, we men with all our boxes, what are boxes that I haven't opened for?
Gino Peremans: Years before ages. It's like, okay, maybe. Yeah. And so it's the allowing Absolutely. And then what is interesting, Andrew, and that's where I always laugh and just blink at my co-facilitator, is when men then start sharing their stories, they just open up. There's, I've never seen so far a man struggling with like really sharing from the heart 'cause of the invitation, their personal story.
Gino Peremans: And that is, that's where the first connection. It starts because everyone starts like, okay, I've had this bereavement, or I've had that, this, um, thing happening to me and, and you know, my younger ages are older or, and everyone has ups and downs. That's where the recognition starts happening. That's where they're like, oh, like men start realizing it's like, oh, it's not all about promotion and getting better and higher.
Gino Peremans: No, it's sometimes. Something is keeping us back or, and it's, this is, yeah, the sharing. When men can talk and share it usually is not a problem. You ask them to stop and feel that's a different thing. Right?
Andrew Cohn: Mm-hmm.
Gino Peremans: Well, another new language. Yeah. And with sharing the story is, yeah, I'm trying to stay away.
Gino Peremans: We invite them not to share stories, but drop into the essence of like what they're trying to say
Andrew Cohn: and to what extent do you bring this into your corporate clients? Who may be in leadership positions, we're all in leadership positions, but if you're talking about bus leadership positions and business, how do you invite these conversations?
Andrew Cohn: Particularly in a, in a setting where you don't have multiple days, you don't have evenings by a fire. What are some small ways that you bring this forward and invite men into this precious space? Well, men
Gino Peremans: and women. 'cause in the corporate world a lot of meanings happen. Yeah. Um, with mixed, with mixed genders.
Gino Peremans: And Yeah. Is what I'm known for with my clients is when they see me, I. They already go like, oh, okay. So the first 10 minutes we do a check-in circle. It's a simple tool and you can just ask a simple question. It's like, okay, how are you entering this meeting? Like, or what do you need to be fully present in this meeting?
Gino Peremans: And actually it's a simple thing, but what you, what you do well, it serves a couple of purposes, but the two main ones are you build a bridge before the. Between the meaning that happened before and the actual meaning the, and the second one is you have people talking themselves into the meeting and into their whole body, rather than just the mind that is focused on task and result.
Gino Peremans: I. And it's, it's small things. And so that's one trick I would say is check in and checkout circle. And it just, sometimes it just takes one word of each person around the table. And the second part is that language that I'm trying to introduce with clients is there's no good or bad, there's no right or wrong.
Gino Peremans: There's only actions and consequences. So whatever you do, whichever decision you make, it's not right or wrong, but every decision that you make. Or you decide not to make as a consequence and taking responsibility and accountability for that consequence, that is actually what is helping the deeper conversations also in those meetings or around those tables.
Gino Peremans: And that's how I then, yeah, I choose. So it doesn't have to necessarily be like, I don't have to introduce like the masculine versus feminine energy language. No. It really is about bringing the conversations to another level and the.
Andrew Cohn: And on purpose. Yeah.
Gino Peremans: And on purpose. I say another level, not deeper.
Gino Peremans: 'cause then,
Andrew Cohn: right. Well, deeper is something that can frighten people away potentially. There you go. Yeah, absolutely. So let's just let it, and I appreciate the way you were talking about that bridge between the last meeting and the current meeting. I have clients who I, you know, I've come in sometimes with my bowl.
Andrew Cohn: My seven metal bowl and I have client, you know what I say, well, let's start the meeting. And I learned this years ago. Let's start the meeting with 60 seconds of silence. And people at first were like, this is totally insane. And afterwards they're like, this is great because it's building a bridge between the previous I.
Andrew Cohn: Thought process, thought pattern. What am what's occupying my mind and how could I empty my mind? Yeah. So that I can be present in this meeting and it's a worthwhile investment of 60 seconds to honor the next 59 minutes that it can be more productive. But I love the way you're saying that, just to create that bridge, just to help us, uh, turn from facing outward to now facing inward for this conversation.
Gino Peremans: And also it, it helps people also to, to share what's on their mind so that it's. It gets a chance to get out of there. Otherwise they just occupied and it takes them like half an hour into the meeting to let go of the previous one, and then they're preparing for the next one. And so yeah, there's this,
Andrew Cohn: well, and I think that touches back to your earlier point of distraction.
Andrew Cohn: It may not be my, my mobile phone that's distracting me now, but I'm distracted. I'm still in the last meeting. No, there you go. I'm not here with you. I'm still in the last meeting.
Gino Peremans: Yeah. Yeah. And that, that's another thing is that your old thought process can be just a distraction. Because when we talk about our emotions or embodiment, our brains aren't our biggest strength.
Gino Peremans: Yeah. Because our brains actually, what happens is they, well, our brains, they serve two purposes with, which is collecting data and analyzing data based on the criteria of is what's happening safe and predictable. And when we're trying to bring ourselves into. A new way of doing things or, or looking in a different way at things.
Gino Peremans: It might not always be, uh, or our brain will not always tell us like, oh, this is a good thing to do 'cause it's new to us and we'd like to learn. Uh, and so for a lot of men who spend a lot of time in their head understanding this idea of like, oh, but hold on. Our brain will just do what it's used to do and we'll look for how can we replicate it or how we continue doing this, and then shifting from there to.
Gino Peremans: Okay, but build some trust in your body. 'cause your body also posts a lot of knowledge and actually it carries you around all day, so it knows you pretty well. So if you start understanding what's going on inside there, you could also use it as a resource. Yeah, we talked about spiritual resource before, but what I feel is a lot of men.
Gino Peremans: Also need to get reconnected to their body as resource for their vitality and. Life force and,
Andrew Cohn: and I hear you describe that. It's, we need to be re more connected to our bodies for ourselves, our own vitality of life force and also for others and for what our purpose and mission is. Uh, when I think about men showing up as just basically as a head.
Andrew Cohn: My body moves my head from this location to that location, and I think about what's most important in my life, my relationship with my partner, my relationship with my son, my relationship with with human beings, and how I show up as the man I wanna be. It's rarely my mission is to solve things. Yes. Or I, my mission is to use my brain when we talk about deeper purpose, and there's a role for that.
Andrew Cohn: These brains are here for a reason. We're here to use them, but boy are we leaving out a whole lot.
Gino Peremans: Now. It's like sometimes men are really walking brains on sticks. One of my clients, uh, used to refer to, uh, their young managers this way, but it's like it's true to put more means to the bone. Loll.
Andrew Cohn: Well, I appreciate this. I feel like we could talk for a very long time. Um, and I hope we do Sure. Uh, perhaps around a fire and, and we'll talk offline about what that might look like. How can people learn more about the work you do? Uh, maybe it's a website or an organizational information where, where do people go to learn more?
Gino Peremans: The best way to learn more about who I am and the organization is gentle giants. It's, uh, the website's Gentle Giants be, and I'm also, you can also look for Gino on LinkedIn, uh, Instagram and Facebook, and they can always reach out. They. Through those different channels, it's social media. I know sometimes social media also serves a purpose.
Gino Peremans: Absolutely. But the website would be the biggest or the best resource at this moment.
Andrew Cohn: Great. And the be is for Belgium, not just for Bem, rather than doing Correct. Okay. Belgium, and you go Yeah. Maybe the being too. And so, and could you just describe briefly, so Gentle Giants offers, what does Gentle Giants offer?
Andrew Cohn: Coaching, retreats, networks, uh, maybe all the above. So
Gino Peremans: gentle Ryan, at this moment is. What we're doing is we're building a community of men who want to function and want to be like ambassadors for healthy masculinity in their relationships, in their communities at work. So that's the, the idea behind it.
Gino Peremans: And at this moment, we only offer, we only have offerings for men and mainly the men's retreats. We have a three day gen giant initiation this fall or spring next year. We still need to decide. There will be a five day. Lived as a gentle giant or a deep dive for those who've done the initiation. And then we're developing an offer to run team workshops in organizations through the lens of masculine and feminine energy.
Gino Peremans: And there's also the one-on-one coaching that could also be provided. Uh mm. So that's, yeah, that's mainly what we're doing these days.
Andrew Cohn: Beautiful. I suspect, uh, people wanna know more. I know I do. So we shall talk further. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. Pleasure for, for the, the ease with, with which you share your personal experience of what you might call the dark side.
Andrew Cohn: I find that to be inspiring and inviting and gives me permission to go there a little bit more easily. So thank you for that.
Gino Peremans: Pleasure. Yeah. Well, pleasure. It's like, yeah, I've learned, I've learned that when, when you have shame and guilt and you bring shame and guilt to the light. That's when shame and guilt evaporates.
Gino Peremans: So that's why I keep sharing my story.
Andrew Cohn: Mm. Beautiful. Thank you so much. The conversation continues for sure. Thank you, Andrew.
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