The Intersection Of Spirituality And Leadership With Kelly Wendorf
Spirituality is such a big word that it becomes elusive to define. But for Kelly Wendorf, the CEO of EQUUS, spirituality is what hones us to become better humans and tethers us to accountability and boundaries. She sits down with Andrew Cohn to discuss deeper into what spirituality is to her and how it guides her life and helps her recognize that there are forces greater than ourselves and that we are a part of. Kelly talks about spirituality in the context of leadership, honing in on the ideas of care and presence as leaders build systems, cultures, and frameworks that help teams and organizations thrive. She also taps into inclusion and what leaders can do to keep doors open as well as how being in nature reminds us that there are greater forces at work. Join today’s episode and find that profound connection to life, nurturing that awareness of how we can influence each other for the greater good.
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The Intersection Of Spirituality And Leadership With Kelly Wendorf
In this episode, I am very happy to have with me, Kelly Wendorf, Founder and CEO of EQUUS at Thunderbird Ridge in beautiful Santa Fe, Tesuque, New Mexico. I certainly will ask a bit about your background and how you came to this point, which itself some would say is a spiritual question. I would love to welcome you to the show, Kelly. I've sent you some questions that may guide our conversation or might not.
It's an opportunity to talk about the intersection of our spiritual dimensions as people and leaders with the impact we can have in the workplace by bringing those beautiful qualities. Many of these are often nurtured by spiritual practices or what some might label as spiritual practices. I'm prompted first to ask you a broad question. That is, why are you interested in talking about this with me?
Thank you, Andrew, that I can be on your show. I love talking about these things so I appreciate being here. I've loved tuning in to your other discussions with people about this topic. I’ve been looking forward to this all day. Why would I be interested in talking about this? For me, spirituality, if you even call it that, I find that to be a loaded word. I'm sure people are going to say that a lot on your show. Naming it in a way makes it separate from everything else in life, which is counter to what spirituality is, which is about our connectedness to all things. Naming it something is always strange but I love the challenge of talking about these things.
I believe that no matter who we are, we all seek a life of meaning in some way, however we define that. Whether people call that spirituality or not, that search for meaning and finding peace, resolve, or that things are working I believe has a deeper underpinning of what we ultimately belong to. That journey fascinates me. It fascinates me how we get there, how we learn to listen, where it takes us, and the kind of things that it provokes and evokes in us. What better thing to talk about than all those juicy materials?
Living a life of meaning and connectedness to all things, among the things that you've shared, that's worthwhile to discuss. That would be an understatement. You've talked a little bit about what spirituality means to you and connectedness to all things. It then relates to living a meaningful life. It's interesting, this notion of how sometimes some of this language can be alienating. That's my word but it can be off-putting. When in fact, it's in everything. Not everybody would describe it that way. They’re like, “What are you talking about? That sounds very woo-woo.”
I was listening to a podcast not long ago from a friend of mine who was talking about how there is no spiritual path or destination that suggests that you could be losing the game of spirituality, which isn't consistent with my beliefs but a lot of people will read this and their beliefs could be very different. Part of my intention with this show is to level the field in terms of conversations, at least. People believe what they believe in. As long as we're getting value from whatever we're defining as spiritual and using it, that's the important thing. It's also important not to separate, marginalize, judge, or for anyone to feel judged.
You could argue that might be part of your spirituality and principles of how spirituality manifests in your life. That's deeply personal. To go back to what is spirituality to me, it's a way of life that perpetually hones me to be a better human towards values of compassion, kindness, generosity, and gratefulness. It also tethers me to accountability, boundaries, who I want to hang out with, the kind of light I bring into the world, and what I want to bring into the world. To me, all of that is spiritual.
I recognize that spirituality for me has to do with an understanding that there are forces greater than myself and I'm a part of all those things. There are what I call invisible in my book, Flying Lead Change, which are those things like intention, presence, and synchronicities. These kinds of things are at play and not woo-woo. I even take offense at that word because woo-woo implies that it's some silly thing. Qualities like compassion can be very fierce. It's not just a silly thing.
Our connection with the suffering of somebody in Ukraine, for example, is not woo-woo. This is what it is to be human. I always encourage my friends, clients, and colleagues to resist that woo-woo, kumbaya, and all those derogatory terms that dismiss something that is very powerful and create robust capacities in us as human beings.
You see, experience, and live the connection between spirituality, accountability, and boundaries because you were going there. That's powerful. I'm not used to hearing that. Could you say more about that, please?
There are a lot of stories throughout history of saints, sages, and wise men and women who've had to stand up for justice, put their foot down, and turn the tables over from the money-lenders or however that went. There is an element to spirituality that stands up in the face of negativity, oppression, dogma, and servitude. That's a fierce side of standing tall in one's alignment for the greater good. When I say greater good, I don't mean my dogmatize greater good is better than your dogmatize greater good. We would all agree that there are some basic principles of the golden rule, for example, how we treat others, and treating others like we treat ourselves.
The care, presence, and showing up in these spaces are important in the face of these other elements that would want to sabotage, hurt, harm, manipulate, or control. Part of a spiritual life is having the backbone to stand in the face of that. For example, as a leader, I make sure that my company's culture is honored, appreciated, and adhered to, not in a way that creates some kind of separation with people but to uphold it as a mother would with a family of children. “These are the things that we do. This is how we treat each other. These are the things that we don't do.”
We don't take advantage of others. We are accountable for our responsibilities. All we're talking about in that context is being the best humans we can be inside a working context, a family context, or a community context. To me, that's very spiritual because my accountability to you assumes immediately that you and I are interconnected. We do not operate as silos and individuals. What I do and don't do does impact you. We can all run around and act like leadership isn't spiritual but it's very spiritual because what I do and don't do does impact you. To me, this is all in that domain.
You mentioned care and presence. From reading your book, care and presence are the two foremost ways that the lead mayor cares for the herd in the horse culture. I don’t know if we could label it this way but care and presence are spiritual ideas or themes of leadership. We're getting to how nature operates, perhaps in some way that could be called spiritual to the extent that we're bringing those types of principles into the way that the beings in nature, in this case, the horses to define the culture that way, are operating under some spiritual framework. Would you describe it that way?
Flying Lead Change: 56 Million Years of Wisdom for Leading and Living
Yeah, I would describe it that way. I'm turning everything on its head. We're all inherently connected. We even know this from a scientific point of view. We can't find the line between where my molecules end and where your atomic structure starts. We are all connected. With that premise then, the natural world is inherently in alignment with the greater order of the universe, if we put it that way. If we look at natural systems, a lot of people who work with me know that I refer to nature a lot as a wisdom teacher and companion. A more pedestrian way to talk about it is biomimicry, looking to nature, looking to life forms, and mimicking those systems so that we can solve our problems.
It's a beautiful field and discipline that looks to nature to help us solve some of our human dilemmas and issues, whether it's in project development, engineering, or social innovation. We look to mutualisms in nature and how there are cooperative tendencies between species. One of the places that I look to find leadership strategies and skills is in the system of the horse herd. I look there because I've been a horsewoman my whole life. I've observed horses domestic and wild for virtually my whole life and I've learned so much from them.
Aside from horses being beautiful and everybody either likes them or doesn't like them, they're a very ancient system. They've been around nearly 60 million years. This makes them one of the oldest most successful mammals on the planet. The oldest is the platypus at 150 million years. Next in line is the horse. This system has been around through tectonic shifts, climate spikes, volcanic mega explosions, and pandemics. They're still thriving. What is it about their longevity? What is it about their capacity to thrive over millions and millions of years? Why have they been able to do that? A lot of it has to do with their culture.
As humans, we have only been around six million. Our civilizational humanity in a civilized form has been 200,000. We've not been around for a long time at all. When we look to each other to uncover what is leadership and spirituality, it's a little bit like kindergarteners looking to each other to figure out how to drive a car. We haven't been around that long but when we look at nature and we see how nature engages with itself, we get one of the most wonderful spiritual teachings ever, which is that we are all connected and we do influence one another. There are certain principles that help us to thrive.
We thrive. We're meant to thrive. We're biologically hardwired to thrive because this is what life wants. Whether you want to say life with a little L or life with a capital L, that's up to people's preference but this is what life wants. Life wants us to thrive, be joyful, and have a sense of deep intrinsic contentment and peace. This is all natural. Peace, connection, freedom, joy, a sense of safety, and a sense of belonging are biological birthrights to being human but we've lost that through a lot of enculturation. We don't realize that our birthright, the way our whole bodies and neural networks are wired is toward joy. If we're not experiencing joy frequently, something's out of alignment. Something's, in a way, aspiritual, maybe we could create that word.
The horse herd is not governed by the most dominant. It's not the dominant gladiator or violent stallion that runs the horse herd. The horse herd is governed by either one or a team of leaders who lead through care and presence. To imagine that a 60-million-year-old system is governed through care and presence, as you suggest, is already a spiritual principle. Those two qualities would ensure not just the survival but the thriving of a 60-million-year-old system.
What happens when we care as leaders, we start to put care in the workplace. We lead with care. We don't lead with dominance. We make another spiritual decision to lead with care rather than dominance. What starts to happen in that system is that you start to increase the sense of trust and safety. People's productivity starts to go up. There's a sense of psychological safety that starts to develop in the organization. When that happens, people are more innovative. They're more innovative and they're using more parts of their brain because they feel safe.
We could go on forever and ever on that. You can tell that for me, spirituality is broad. I had my go-to people like you may have your go-to people, people who you have looked to over the ages and who have been wise. Buddha is one. Jesus is another. Mary Magdalene is one. Also, my beautiful spiritual teacher, Uncle Bob Randall from Australia. There are people that I look towards but that doesn't mean it's a religious context.
There's a part of me that wants to ask you what that distinction is for you but I don't want to get stuck down on a wormhole on that. One thing I want to be sure that we touch on and maybe we'll come back to that or maybe there'll be a part two is, as a master certified coach for years, how have you seen leaders talk about these concepts and invite people into this space in a way that's broad, non-alienating, and inclusive?
To me, this is a key element of inclusion in this EDI or DEI world where we're living in the workplace where there's a drive for more inclusion. To me, this is a critical dimension of that. I'm curious to know how you've seen leaders talk about it. Maybe that's the answer, maybe they're not talking about it, or maybe they're living it but have you seen them talk about it and demonstrate it in a way that invites everyone under the tent, even if they may think that the word spiritual itself is a word they don't appreciate, understand, or want to hear?
If I understand you correctly, you're posing that spirituality be one topic that is part of the inclusion dialogue.
Exactly. A theme, a topic, or a piece of it. Like any other dimensions of our diversity, there are ways that we differ in terms of our spiritual practices, if any, or religious beliefs, if any, how we see the world, if any, or nature. What you're talking about are ways that leaders can bring or that you have and the horses have as leaders, as the lead mayor has brought, can bring these dimensions for the benefit of the group, the culture, and all of us since we're all connected. I'm curious to know how you've seen leaders in the business context do this in ways. How does it work? What are some ways that they can do this to keep doors and windows open so people come, participate, engage in this, and don't let those differences get in the way?
For the most part, I don't see them engaging in this. It's such a hot potato. People don't want to say the word “spirituality.” We are still throwing away derogatory terms like woo-woo, kumbaya, and this carry-on that keeps the topic under sheets or wraps in a way because it's a no-go zone. There's so much tension that has to do with various religious beliefs and this thing that comes in where people feel like their religious belief is better than somebody else's religious belief, and then away we go so it becomes a no-go place. It gets cloaked in or veiled loosely in this dimension of emotional intelligence.
At least it's getting some airtime in that area but I do believe there's so much more to be said and some liberation that's possible where people can start to feel a sense of inclusion. I was facilitating a workshop a few days ago with a group. We'd been charged with developing the emotional intelligence side of the organization. We very quickly reframed it as leadership. It didn't get relegated to the emotional part because once you say emotional, then there are all these hidden biases and ladders of inference that start to happen in that realm. To me, that's unfortunate.
What we found ourselves discussing under the premise of feeling feelings was how much people started to feel each other's feelings, how porous they were, how they could tell when somebody had a strong experience in the room and how much it impacted them, and how being present with things for present sake. Not because we're going to get peaceful, solve the problem, or name it so we can tame it but to be present for the present's sake. There was a moment in that room where there was a shift where it went to a whole another level of, “This is a thing. This isn't just some skill I learn and practice in a transactional way. This is opening me up to all of life and what it’s like.”
That's when you build a lot of meaning in people's lives in the workplace. Whether they say it or not, or articulate it or not, their nervous system like a tuning fork is starting to resonate with a collective oneness. I'll put it that way. I can always tell when it happens. It's always amazing. There is a power that happens there where suddenly the team gets congealed and you can see the weight falling off their shoulders. We didn't lead with, “We're all going to hold hands and feel the oneness together.” That's not how we led. We led with a practical step of feeling all feelings. That's one of the commitments we were working on.
To answer your question, I do see it coming in sideways so that comes in through the EI door. You and I both share a respect for Fred Kofman's work, Conscious Business, where he first identifies a problem of what's happening organizationally, where we run into setbacks, log jams, and interpersonal dramas. He starts there and works us toward a place where we start to see our shared humanity and how we start to live as if we're all in this life together. He's one person.
Jim Dethmer and Kaley Klemp, who wrote the book, The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, do a similar thing. They even go so far as to have this module where there’s To Me. Life happens to me. That's also known as a victim mindset. By Me is the player mindset.
We're starting to get Through Me, like things are coming through me. Inspiration and the authority to lead this team are coming through me. It's not just me doing it but I'm accessing something bigger. As Me is I Am. You've got the Buddha, Lao Tzu talking, and Ramana Maharshi talking about I Am. You don't get more spiritual than that. That is the biggest premise. Yet there it is in a business book.
I'm finding that folks are backing their way in and then unfolding it. Maybe that's the most respectful, quite frankly. Maybe that is a way that we're able to fly under the radar of the neocortex of folks, that critical mind. We fly under that radar, go straight to the heart, and speak to that place. Maybe that's okay. With this show, the fact that you pair spirituality and leadership is so bold to do that. Getting to say these words in one sentence is a beautiful thing. Thank you.
I believe that so many of us are interested in cultivating these deeper dimensions of ourselves. These deeper dimensions of ourselves bring us peace, satisfaction, connection, and meaning. Whether we label this as spiritual or not, those dimensions are the most important things in my life. Why would I want to separate those from work if I had a choice? In a world like ours where it's all about engagement, retaining people, getting discretionary effort, getting buy-in, and building trust, we have to engage with those types of dimensions. Otherwise, we're getting people's hands and we're not getting their heads and hearts.
Even the word trust. Trust is a powerful spiritual capacity. Trust what? Trust oneself, life, and another person. Trust is so multidimensional and yet it's thrown on pens and posters by the water cooler.
It's interesting about trust. When we're talking about trusting leaders in the Harvard Business Review articles on how to build trust and grow trust, it's trust in whom but also trust in what. I don't trust a whole lot of whom unless they're connected to a bigger what.
That's powerful what you said. To put it in very easier terms, rather than to get so esoteric that people flip out about it, understand one's connection with nature and nature's connection with the cosmos. These qualities of trust, presence, and care are all part of what's aligned with nature. If we limit it to that and not have to get too much into those other places, that can seem a little way out.
For me to trust you, I have to trust my trust and something in me that I'm aligned with that I trust. Otherwise, I'm throwing you something without any information at all. If you weren't aligned with that what, then we're resonating at the same frequency. We may make mistakes but we know where our true north is. We may accidentally step on each other's toes, make a mistake, or hurt each other. We both know where our compass setting is pointed.
In my years of working in leadership, one way of knowing that you've got a healthy culture and good leadership in a web of leadership responsibilities is that mistakes can be made. There's no fear. There's pride and there are feelings that can get hurt but mistakes can be made and we move forward. That's an indicator of healthy levels of trust. We can move forward. We don't need to run and hide.
Authenticity and vulnerability are all words that are thrown around all the time. To me, they have a spiritual premise because they're connected to something larger.
Authenticity and vulnerability have a spiritual premise because they're connected to something larger.
Earlier in the conversation, you talked about connectedness and meaning. Through the course of these conversations, I'm hearing different words that are like the bigger letters on the eye chart of spirituality, if you will. Would it be fair to say these are some of the themes that you would be in that space?
It's a great metaphor. I love it.
John Muir famously said, “I'd rather be in the mountains thinking about God than in a church thinking about the mountains.” It’s to the extent that for you, nature and the natural world, including these wonderful four-legged teachers that you work with is that spiritual place. How do you bring that back to your team, work, and clients when you're indoors or working in the 21st-century world of technology and otherwise? How do you bring the benefits of that indoors to your clients and teams?
For me, it's more about living it than espousing it.
Not preaching but modeling.
Modeling and living it because anybody can throw around words like care, presence, accountability, or fail and fail fast. I go regularly to the watering hole and the oasis of the natural world. It informs my body on a subconscious level that I'm not aware of consciously but know is happening. It regulates me, which allows me to sense my connection with all things. It helps me to trust that there are greater forces at work than what I'm able to do or not do. There's so much that's outside of my control. There are a whole lot of qualities that start pouring in from spending regular time in communion with nature, whether that's a hike, backpacking, riding a horse, or walking with a friend.
Being with nature informs us that there are greater forces at work than what we are able to do or not do. There's so much that's outside of our control.
I find that that then informs not what I say but how I say it. Am I rigid, crisp, and in a state of separation and fear that's going to come across no matter what I say. Over time, I've learned to trust that that resource orients the rest of my day, and how I show up in the office and with my team. It helps me to bring in those qualities of care, presence, accountability, compassion, and courage. That's another great big eye chart word, “Courage.” We do have a cultural document. I love to help companies develop those kinds of things like manifestos or playbooks that will have those kinds of words that point to how we all become better humans. It seems like it's much more meaningful when you're living it and then owning it when you're not.
Which is living it.
There are a lot of times when I'm not.
I did a recorded book talk in 2022 on this wonderful book called The Extended Mind: The Power of Thinking Outside the Brain. It talked about the impact of spending time in nature. We are wired, to your point. Yes, it may be the purview of poets but it's also the purview of business people and athletes. When we spend time in nature, it regulates our nervous systems. It's healing for us and it helps us think more clearly. All of those things are researched and documented.
One of the things I appreciate about modern literature and business is that it considers research on a broad variety of topics. What's the impact of mindfulness on decision-making? What's the impact of sabbaticals on our systems? What are the benefits of rest on a whole variety of different things? The science is catching up with you so I'm grateful for that.
Science is catching up. What I love about opening the doors to spirituality is to be inclusive of our connection to all of life. You don't have to believe anything, take on some special code, have a special handshake, or have a certain spiritual experience. Look at your experience at this moment. You can close your eyes and see if you can feel where you stop and the rest of the world starts. See if you can find it. I can't.
I can feel the temperature on my skin and the gravity where I'm sitting. When you close your eyes and let your nervous system feel out to where you are and where you start and stop, then it all starts to feel like, “Maybe all these ingrained ideas I had about being an individual eye are not holding all the water I thought they were.” I always encourage people to look at their experiences.
As long as that's the conversation, that would be the opposite of evangelizing. The space you're talking about, “Where do I begin otherwise,” I was thinking about that book again. It talked a lot about interoception and the ability that we all have, whether it's highly developed or not, or whether we're aware of it or not, to perceive some of these things. Whether it's other people in their emotional state or to perceive what's happening in the environment. We can get a sensation. Not an emotion but we can get a feeling of what's going on out there.
We're wired to sense that. In this world of technology and screens, we're separated from it more but there is still hope. We can make progress in that direction but we're wired for that. That's encouraging that there's this untapped toolkit. Whether that's labeled spiritual or not, it has value. That's the key question. What is value?
What excites me the most about this conversation is that corporations and companies wield tremendous influence around the world, over so many lives, policies, governmental decisions, the lives of employees, the lives of the families of the employees, and the lives of consumers. It's enormous, the amount of influence that they have. If companies are beginning to experience change, they are collectively becoming living organisms because that's what they are. They're comprised of living people who are more reflective, accountable, caring, and present. How's that going to shape the world? That excites me.
Corporations and companies wield tremendous influence around the world and over so many lives. If they begin to experience a sea change where they are collectively becoming organisms that are more reflective, accountable, caring, and present, then that’s how we shape the world.
Here's to encouraging our clients and everyone we encounter to carry this forward and have these conversations in these invites whether it's side door or your experience. It’s in these non-threatening ways to talk about what has value and what connects us, what gives us meaning to your point, to use some of those terms from your definition. I have a feeling we will continue this conversation. Maybe this would be a good place to wrap up this volume. Where can people learn more about you and your work?
KellyWendorf.com. EQUUSInspired.com. My book is Flying Lead Change: 56 Million Years of Wisdom for Leading and Living. Thank you for the plug.
You bet. Thank you for this contribution. I look forward to continuing our conversation. I appreciate you being a part of the show.
It’s good to be here.