Finding Grace in the Ordinary: A Journey in Practical Spirituality, with Marcos Cajina
In this in-depth and very practical conversation, Andrew speaks with longtime human resources leader and leadership consultant Marcos Cajina, who is based in Madrid, Spain. Marcos talks about his personal journey and how he became a student of spirituality. He discusses the connection between spirituality and leadership--very practically--including identifying the impact of spirituality on high-performance leadership
Marcos discusses several specific "laws of spirit," which are extremely clear and operational. He’s a terrific teacher and guide on topics of spirituality and leadership behavior. And as he says, "Business is very practical."
Music Credit: Kodiak
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Listen to the podcast here
Finding Grace in the Ordinary: A Journey in Practical Spirituality, with Marcos Cajina
Welcome back to the show. I’m really happy to share this conversation with my friend and colleague, Marcos Cajina. Marcos was born and raised in Madrid, Spain. He has deep experience consulting and advising leaders in the corporate world in a variety of roles, beginning his career in corporate human resources for the Ford Motor Company in several locations in Europe.
What I appreciate about this conversation with Marcos is that he really is a student of spirituality as well as a student of leadership in a practical way. He talks easily about things in which he uses the term spirituality directly and its practicality. As Marcos says, “Business is practical. Business is nothing, if not very practical.” To the extent that spirituality, the way he describes it, is extremely practical, it’s useful in leadership and business.
He talks about how he came to seek spirituality through practicing martial arts. He talks about a scientific approach to spirituality, testing things, using what works, and letting go of what doesn’t. He talks about what Japanese archery has taught him about making spirituality practical. He talks about several laws of spirit as he describes them. The first is acceptance, not to be confused with resignation. The second is cooperation. How can I be more cooperative with myself, aware of myself, and also be more cooperative with others?
He also talks about another spiritual law of understanding. This is very interesting. He talks about how action comes before understanding, like motivation comes after action. He said in business, for example, leaders need to take action with incomplete information. Leaders need to be risk-takers to some degree. We need to move, and then we can understand, “Was this a great decision? We need to take action.” It’s very important. We can’t wait until everything is clear and we understand everything. I thought that was a really interesting, practical learning tidbit there.
He talks about compassion. As he said, “Can I bring compassion to my own stupidity?” He also talks about compassion as a key leadership competency and being compassionate with ourselves and others. Related to compassion, we talked near the end of the conversation about the role of loving and the variety of expressions of loving in the business space, including supporting other people and coaching, and a variety of caring actions towards others as well as being willing to learn from others and receive the support of other people and learning to make leadership a team sport. There’s a lot of wisdom in this conversation, simple wisdom and practical wisdom. I hope you enjoy the conversation.
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*Please note that the podcast transcript is AI-generated, and thus there may be inaccuracies in the transcription from time to time.*
I am really excited to have my friend and colleague, Marcos Cajina, with us. Marcos is representing his native Spain. Thank you for being our first Spaniard on the show, but not the last. There are several already in the queue, but thanks for being with us. We’ve known each other for a while in different capacities and different ways. When I thought about a conversation about the intersection of spiritual dimensions of human beings and leadership, I thought, “Marcos is on the shortlist.” You have been a consultant in the leadership space for many years. Before that, you were an HR leader at the Ford Motor Company. Was that in Madrid?
That was in Madrid.
Also, at the European headquarters, which was where?
It was in England. It was very close to London.
I didn’t know that. That’s cool. You’ve been in the corporate space. You’ve been in the leadership space as a consultant and executive coach. You’ve worked in executive education on several fronts, including where I’ve done some work, at Wharton at Aresty, or if it’s still called Aresty. I’m so grateful to have you on the show here. What else about your history and experience relates to spirituality in leadership that I haven’t mentioned already?
First of all, it’s a great privilege to be with you. My greetings to the audience of this show. In answering your question, it seems that leadership is something that only happens when you are in a retreat or when you are in a cave. It’s something that happens outside this world. What I like about spirituality is the dimension of being very practical. By practical, that’s the sharing point with business. In business, we are obsessed with, “Is this going to be practical? Is this going to give me a return? Is this going to help me achieve my goal? What else do I need to do in order to overcome the perceived obstacle?”
Spirituality has that dimension in practicality, something that I can do something with it. I can bring it to the world. Whatever I am in this meeting and this conversation with a peer delivering feedback, how can I bring that dimension that is always present into what I do in business? For me, without that practicality, it wouldn’t attract me. It would be something that wouldn’t be of interest to me.
Spiritual Awakening And Shift In Perspective
For you, in the course of your background or personal history to the extent that you’re comfortable sharing it, has spirituality always been about practicality or is that something that has come to you in the last couple of decades? How has that been for you on your journey? Has your view of spirituality and its practicality shifted?
I started doing martial arts when I was six years old. I was a fan of David Carradine and Kung Fu. You name it.
Was that from Spain?
Yeah. I wanted to have superpowers. I wanted to do all the jumps and kicks that I was watching on tele. I started to do a lot of martial arts because I was after the superpowers. I read about the Siddhars, the Siddhis, and the great masters. They can bilocate, and they can do this as well as psychic readings. I was fascinated by that side of spirituality.
I soon discovered, “What’s the big deal? What’s the big deal of jumping, kicking, and bilocating? I want something more practical, something that I can use on a daily basis.” For me, the turning point was the definition of one of the spiritual leaders whom I respect very highly and who became my teacher. He says ordinariness is the entry to the kingdom of Heaven. It’s to be ordinary.
That goes against everything that I had read. Everything that I had read was all about superpowers and how you can be in a cave without eating for two years and the rest of it. Here comes a man who says it’s being ordinary. That really opened up the door for me. Understanding that approach to spirituality rang a bell inside of me.
Some part of you knew that was true. It was true for you.
Being ordinary and being who I am. That really was the shift. It wasn’t that someone woke me up in the middle of the night and I saw a presence, and there was a message that said, “Convert, my beloved.” It was a very simple statement that felt strong inside of me, like a deep truth that is very rarely shared in the outside world. It went all against everything that I have thought about spirituality. Since then, it’s been close to my heart. I still use it. I’m like, “Am I ordinary enough?”
If I could probe a little bit. When I hear ordinary, and I have heard that said before, that expression, to me, it means almost universal and almost common. Is that how you understand it? There may be a language thing too with some subtleties on that. What do you understand ordinary to mean in terms of its power?
I’m talking for myself. For me, it is dropping this urge I had to be special. I was running against a fantasy. I was like, “I want to be special. I want people to know I have achieved so much. I put my worth in how much money I’ve got in the bank. I want people to know I’ve got two Ferraris back in my garage.” The moment I accepted ordinariness, the only way forward was to be myself.
Being myself may seem like a ridiculous idea. You’re like, “You are yourself.” Maybe I’m the slowest student on the planet because discovering who I am, accepting who I am, appreciating myself as I am, and striving to be better, yet, accepting who I am and embracing my own humanity turned out to be far more challenging than what I thought.
The only way forward is to be ourselves. But discovering, accepting, and appreciating ourselves just as we are may be far more challenging than we thought.
It’s a full-time job.
It’s interesting that in business, we strive to be Superman. We strive to be superwoman. We don’t give ourselves the chance to take care of ourselves. We’re always on the go. We don’t give ourselves permission to stop and restore energy. It’s always on the go. I remember Stephen Covey many years ago saying, “What’s the point of running up the ladder in business to discover at the top that it was leaning against the wrong wall?” It made a lot of sense to me.
I do want to do a good job, but that’s part of being ordinary. I was like, “Why am I pretending to be who I’m not? What am I trying to hide? Why am I trying to pretend? Why am I afraid of being vulnerable? What stops me from generating safety around me? Why do I need to compete or over-compete? Why is it that I want to prove myself better than other people?” All those questions started a quest and a journey that I call practical spirituality. It’s this practicality of asking doable questions that allows me to accept who I am to be myself. It seems very easy, but at least for me, it’s not that easy.
It sounds like it’s a whole life’s journey. It doesn’t end with these types of questions. I’m also hearing that your awareness or your consciousness is full of questions and full of, “How do we make the best of this precious life?” This is not going by unbeknownst to you. This is something that you are squeezing every drop of. That’s what I’m hearing or experiencing from you. I appreciate that in those questions.
Practical Spirituality In Daily Life And Business
One thing that comes to mind for me in listening to you in that acceptance and ordinariness focus, for lack of a better term, is how that could potentially be in conflict with the work in the business world that you do and have done your whole career that is about goals, growth, and pushing as a function of business. It’s not as a function of development, awareness, and an individual spiritual path, whatever that is. We don’t even try to define that.
I wonder if there might sometimes be a tension between acceptance, the ordinary, and universality, which is more about the present, growth, pushing numbers, goals, and driving, which is so future-out-there-oriented. Am I making sense in terms of the potential conflict there? How do you manage that?
Before I answer that question, allow me to go back to something that you mentioned, which is the scientific approach to spirituality. That’s the approach I have to spirituality. I want to be a spiritual scientist. I check things out and recheck things out. I go inside and recheck things out. I use what works, and when it doesn’t work anymore, I have the week to let it go, and then I embrace what’s next. That’s what I call a very scientific approach.
I want to go through the experience. I don’t want anyone telling me what to do. I don’t want anyone preaching down to me. I want to discover things for myself. I want to test things for myself. I want to go through the experience, which doesn’t mean that I don’t go out and ask for support when I think I need support. That’s part of being ordinary. I need support like anybody else. I want to clarify that it’s a very practical thing. For me, it has the dimension of being a spiritual scientist.
In responding to your question, it’s a paradox. For about eleven years, I’ve been doing traditional Japanese archery, which is all about hitting the target without the willingness or the intention of hitting the target. It’s one of those zen paradoxes. How do I hit a target without releasing an arrow? It’s a very interesting experience.
I remember when I started doing this martial art. I became obsessed and self-judgmental because I was not hitting the target. I said, “What’s wrong with my technique? What’s wrong with me? Why is it taking me so long to hit the bloody thing?” The more I struggled with that, the less I would hit the target. The interesting thing is finding that sweet spot where you are so centered. You are in such a place of deep you without the ambition of hitting that. I have experienced the arrow releasing itself and surprising myself hitting the target. You go into, “How did that happen? I want to do it again,” and then you’re back into the mess because you bring your head and try to do it but it won’t work.
How you hit the target without trying to hit the target is a way of making that spirituality very practical. I see this in business where people are trying too hard. They’re under so much stress. That in itself becomes an impediment to high performance. I love tennis. You see these top players. I see elegance, effortlessness, and grace.
My question is, “What did they do to achieve that place of grace and flow?” That’s what some psychologists call it. I’m like, “How can I recreate that more in my life such that I have high performance in an elegant way?” Did they get there by chance? No. It took hours of sweat and training. Something through that training shifted that gave them the ability to perform under high stress and high pressure.
When you watch a final of Roland Garros or any 1 of their 4th Grand Slam, there are millions of people watching you. There are thousands of people watching you. You know the press is going to comment on your performance. Yet, you see these phenomenal players that they’ve got the technique. They’ve got the stamina, endurance, flexibility, strength, and resilience. Everything is there. We get to see the magic. That magic is what I think is the connection between business and spirituality.
There’s a place where you can hit the target without trying to hit the target. The mind cannot comprehend that. It’s an experience. When I watch the interviews of these top players that they’ve done this phenomenal match, they don’t analyze. They can’t explain it. They’re like, “I was in the flow. I was in the zone. I was in a place where it came out. It was a great delight. I want to thank everybody because it’s been a great experience.” I want more of that. I want to know how you did it. I want to go to that place. That’s the scientific in me trying to replicate this.
The metaphor of the example of me releasing an arrow to hit a target without wanting to hit the target, every time I experience that, immediately after, my brain says, “How did we do that? Let’s do it again.” For the next few hours, I keep missing the target. It’s a simple experience, yet it’s very difficult, at least for me, to explain it. I hope it’s landing well.
I love it. It’s very clear. I have two thoughts about it. One is to use the example of tennis and it coming together. It’s so much intensity without effort, as I hear it. Perhaps if that’s where spirituality is coming out, maybe that’s why we always start with love in tennis. The expression that’s coming up to me is something that one of my teachers taught me years ago, which is a high commitment with low attachment. It’s the attachment that gets us into trouble. If you’ve read Dan Harris’ book, 10% Happier, what’s the difference? How can we do mindfulness, and how can it help us? Mindfulness brings us to this place of levelness and calmness. We can strive, but we’re not attached. It’s the attachment that can often hook us. It leads to burnout, etc.
The Three Laws Of Spirituality
Let me build on that. You are hitting the nail. When it comes down to spirituality, one of the first laws of spirituality is acceptance. Everybody goes ballistic when they hear acceptance because they link that to resignation. What you said is, “I strive for this. I fell short. I’ve got two options in life. One, self-inflicted judgment, self-harsh talk, putting myself down, analyzing, opening the door to the imposter syndrome, bringing the perfectionist inside of me, and flagellate myself because I fell short,” or you can accept that you fell short. Learn from it. Course correct. No drama. That’s it.
When I work with senior executives, I see a lot of self-flagellation. They’re like, “I’m falling short. I’m not competitive. I’m not going to sustain my leadership.” They are not very friendly with themselves. They’re tough on themselves. What I keep saying is, “Learn from the experience. Course correct. Accept that you made a mistake. Don’t add any drama. Keep growing.” They say, “It can’t be that simple. I’ve learned that I need to flagellate myself. I need to punish myself.” That is not the first law of spirituality. The first law of spirituality is to accept yourself. You accept it. You’re like, “I made a mistake, and so what?” Kill the deal. Course correct. Learn from it. Move on. In business, we call that agility. Be agile.
The next spiritual law is corporation. Corporation is to befriend yourself. You’re like, “What do I need to develop? What do I need to let go? What does the situation call for? I’m in corporation.” That’s, hopefully, two examples of very practical spirituality, because this happens every day in my life. I don’t need to go to a cave to practice acceptance. I don’t need to go anywhere else to practice corporation. It’s right here. I’m washing the dishes or anything. I can drop a dish and say, “I’m going to be, for three days, flagellating myself.”
That’s what I call very practical. I’m like, “How do I bring more cooperation?” Everybody’s dying for more collaboration at work. I’m like, “What do I need to let go? What do I need to accept? How can I include others? How can I be more patient? How can I be more caring first with myself and others?” Those are big questions. Check it out. Be a scientist. Bring that into the business.
As I hear you describe moving from the first law of spirit, acceptance, to the second law of spirit cooperation, it is moving from, “What so?” to, “Now what?”
Exactly. That’s it. The third law is understanding, and this is one of the tricks. Motivation comes after action. I’m like, “I don’t want to go to the gym,” but the moment I start moving towards the gym, I start to feel the motivation. If I’m waiting on the couch to feel motivated to get my butt off the chair and go to the gym, it’s not going to work very often. I’m going to find all sorts of excuses, rationalizations, and justifications to, “I’m too tired. I don’t want to go to the gym.”
Motivation comes after action. The same thing comes with understanding. Understanding comes after participation. I’m like, “I get it. I understand. It makes sense.” I need to be in the action. Isn’t that business? We are in the action. Executive comes from Latin, exsequi, which means to execute, to do, or to carry things out. I see another connection. If I want to understand, I have to act. I have to go through the experience. I then understand, “Now, I understand it.” There we go, the third law of spirituality. It’s very practical.
Motivation comes after action. The same thing comes with understanding. Understanding comes after participation.
I see the challenge in many of my clients to be willing to act without understanding. You’re talking about risk-taking and acting with incomplete information, which is what leaders have to do. What do leaders do? They act with incomplete information. You make a decision based on what you know. You act upon what you know. I may not even understand what the result is going to be. We act first so that we can have enough exposure, feedback, etc., and then understand, and then we double down, change course, or something like that.
Guess what? In business, there’s such a high fear of making mistakes. Why? It’s because if I make a mistake, my identity and self-worth are attached to what I achieve. If I fail, ergo, I must be incompetent. I may not be worthy of the promotion. It’s because of that and the shame that I feel that I’m going to play the game of pretending. I’m playing the game not to lose instead of playing the game to win. We get caught in the defensive and then protective, the pretends, the being politically correct, and all those games that clearly are not going to take us to where we want to go. If we accept, “This is it. We made a mistake,” and there is no drama and we course-correct, that’s it. Only then, you can understand.
When I was in other martial arts, I would do a movement without any success. It took me a lot of repetitions to finally get it. I was like, “I’m not moving the bloody thing this way. No wonder it’s not going to work.” If anyone explained that to me first, my mind would start going into analysis and say, “I don’t think that’s going to work. It’s all in theory. I need to go through the experience.”
Mothers know this. As men, we would not have a clue what it means to give birth. We can read a book or watch 25,000 Netflix series, but it only takes going through the experience for a woman to know, “This has been my experience. I know what it means.” It could be a very different experience to Susan or to Patricia who also gave birth, but they went through other circumstances and situations. Even though the concept idea and the simple idea of giving birth, I don’t think two women would go through the same experience. All of them know what it means to give birth.
For themselves in their own way.
The same applies to business. We go through this process and another team goes through that process, and then we share best practices and worst practices. We’re like, “You went through that. I went through this.” Understanding comes after participation.
What I’m hearing consistently is drama is optional.
Drama is optional. Tragedy is another option. Comedy is another option. You can choose to cry. You can choose to laugh. You can choose to make this a catastrophe. We’ve got the freedom to choose how we respond. I can be really upset with myself because I missed the target or I can recenter myself, continue to challenge myself and support myself. What’s the purpose of the drama?
You can choose to cry or laugh, or however you respond to a catastrophe. We've got the freedom to choose how we respond.
I’m very good at drama. I’m not innocent. I come from Spain. We love drama. We make a big fuss of nothing. Sometimes, it’s a lot of fun that we make drama, but is it effective? Is it bringing the things that I want? I can be angry. I can use that energy to change. I can feel guilty and use that energy to my advantage. Has drama worked for me? No, not really. Has it been fun sometimes? Yeah, it’s been fantastic to share drama with other Spaniards. Other people say, “Let’s make the end of the world or doomsday.”
It’s entertaining.
It’s entertaining, but does it work? No. At some point, I need to let that go. At some point, I need to accept that I need to correct, learn, and do something with this. The moment I accept it and I go, “I’m going to do it again,” then the insight comes in and I say, “That’s what I always mean.”
As I hear you describe this the way it’s so beautifully integrated, would it be accurate to say that to move through challenges in the way you’re discussing, to accept, to improve, to participate, to then understand, etc. is a spiritual journey or an application of spiritual principles?
That’s it. It’s the application and the practicality. You are holding this scientific mind, testing things out, and checking things out. You’re like, “How can I improve the way I’m doing this? Can I support myself? Can I be kind to myself? Can I bring self-compassion by my own stupidity? Can I accept myself as I am?” Sometimes, it’s easy. Sometimes, it is really a nightmare. You’re like, “I missed again.” Take a deep breath. What do you need to do differently? What different things do you need to do?
We humans love to build our comfort zones, and then we become prisons of our comfort zones. We surprise ourselves by doing the same thing, expecting to get a different result. I say to my client, “If you keep on doing the same thing, do you think you’re going to get a different result?” They say, “Maybe one day.” I’m like, “Call me.”
We humans love to build our comfort zones, but sometimes those very zones can become our prison.
To do something different involves risk, uncertainty, and fear of failing. If I fail, I’m back to the self-flagellation game. It’s too scary to try something different.
Exactly. Compassion is an executive function. It’s an executive competency. It’s on the books. I’ve done 360-degree reports where compassion is there. I’m fascinated to see how leaders overlook compassion very rapidly even though it’s part of the twelve top competencies. They go straight to participative management, leading people, or whatever.
After the conversation and all that, which is always very valuable, I say, “What about this one over here? I don’t see the value in being self-compassionate. I don’t see the value of this. What’s the value of flagellating yourself? What’s the value of not supporting your peers? What’s the value of you growing without support?
How far could you go if you knew that everybody in your team is unconditionally supporting your success? Would that make any difference in your life if you knew that? Think about that for a second. What would you dare to do if you knew that everybody on this team was unconditionally supporting your success? What would you dare to do? Would that change the game?” That is a very powerful question.
It would redefine the game. It’s beautiful.
What would you dare to do? The answer that I found to that question is, “I don’t have a clue. I don’t even know what my limit is. I don’t even know what my potential is. What I do know and suspect is that if I knew for certain that everybody on this team unconditionally supported my success, two things would happen naturally. One, I would really dare to do the unthinkable. Two, I will reciprocate. You support me and I support you.”
We’ve got a very positive virtuous cycle where we are supporting each other and accelerating our own growth rather than limiting ourselves and going backward where everybody is so scared and unsafe that we are protecting ourselves. That’s the choice we’ve got. When I accept the other one, we call it in business as inclusion. Inclusion means I need to accept you as you are in exchange for not harming me. That’s the only thing I’m asking of you. The social exchange is, “Don’t harm me, I will accept you.”
The moment you feel accepted, why would you want to harm the other person? You got what you wanted, which is to be accepted. I’ve heard that diversity is a fact and inclusion is a choice. We are not clones. Everybody’s different. The challenge is inclusion. That takes us back to the first law of spirituality, which is acceptance. Can I accept you as you are? In humanity, we seem not to be very good at that lesson.
There is a long history of that.
We’re still learning that lesson. There we go. It’s the first spiritual law. We’re still struggling with that. We’re starting to go into the second one, which is cooperation. We only have one planet. Would it be worthwhile taking care of it? What do we need to do to cooperate and take care of the planet? That changes the game. Cooperation.
Maybe one day, we understand what is the purpose of life as an experience rather than as a concept or philosophy. Maybe some of the masters were right. Love each other. It’s as simple as that. How practical can that be? It’s very practical. It’s an action. It’s not a noun. It’s a verb. It’s like, “Am I loving? What does that mean? Could I love someone?”
I feel this is leading to an interesting place, and interesting isn’t even the right word. That sounds mental. It’s more than that. What’s the role of loving in business? That’s where this is evolving, as I hear it.
The first thing is we need to know what loving means or the expressions of loving. Maybe loving is an act of generosity, sharing information, supporting someone, coaching someone, or sharing information with someone.
All of these are ways of giving to someone in support or caring action. That’s what I’m hearing.
At the same time, be open to being helped. Be open to receiving support. Be open to making this a team sport. If you grow, I grow.
It’s interesting. I want to put a mark on this. What you’re defining is one element of loving is to be open. It’s not just loving, giving, sharing, supporting, donating, and contributing. It’s being open to the reciprocal, to allow that to happen.
That’s it. It’s give, take, and receive.
That’s beautiful.
At the end of the day, there are three kinds of people in the world that I see. Those are the makers, the takers, and the fakers. The fakers pretend to know when they don’t. The takers take everything from me and accumulate. They’re egocentric. There’s then the makers. This part of the makers is that this intention of bringing the highest good. They are working for the collective and serving others but not depleting themselves. It’s bringing an abundance of give and receive. We make it happen. We create abundance, peace, fellowship, and whatever it is. It’s a give-and-take. We give and receive.
For the fakers, it is all about faking and popularity. It’s not surprising that in the world, we see fake news all over the place. We fake, distract, pretend, and play politics in a negative way. There are the takers. The definition of success is, “I accumulate and get the monopoly. That’s it. Game over. I have it all.” You’re not going to make lots of friends because you’ve got it all.
When I look at it in nature, my brain doesn’t have all the energy. My body needs to share its fair amount of energy throughout the body. Scientists have said that the brain takes 20% and it’s the liver that takes another 20%, so be it. If my brain took 100% of my energy, I don’t think I’d be alive. It doesn’t make any sense.
You’d be really smart for ten minutes and then you’d die, or something like that.
That’s it. It’s like, “I’ve got everything. I’m at the top of the world. Now, I’m dying.” Hopefully, that gives a little bit of the practicality. I go back to this because that’s the message I want to put across.
It’s a beautiful message. I appreciate this conversation. I’m sure we could continue it for hours. In fact, I would like that. I so appreciate the movement from the zen of archery to the elegance of tennis to the subjective but very real experience of childbirth. It’s all part of the conversation. It’s a beautiful thing. I appreciate the inclusiveness of the conversation. To be continued. In the interest of a reasonable-length episode, I’d love it if we could close this here. Where do people look for you if they want to connect with you and want to learn more about what you do and what you teach?
My website is RenewalCompany.com. You can access the websites. If that catches your attention, you can always write to me at Info@RenewalCompany.com. Our mission is about healthy people in healthy organizations. It’s as simple as that. Health is a sign of ordinariness. It’s natural. That’s my natural state. I’m healthy. We help people to become healthy teams and organizations. We want to transform the way people work and bring a little bit more joy and being into high performance. We look inside all things.
Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your time. The mark of a good conversation is the want of more. I certainly want more, and I suspect that those reading are going to want more as well. Thank you. It’s good to see you.
Thank you for the opportunity. Bye now.