Spirituality In The Workplace With Martin Rutte
We have been conditioned to think that spirituality is not something we could bring to work. It's something we leave at the door, never to be spoken about in the halls of business and professionalism. But this can be a huge missed opportunity for leaders and their teams. In this episode, we are joined by Martin Rutte, a pioneer in the intersection of business and spirituality. Martin shares his journey into this transformative space, revealing a pivotal moment at an Augustinian monastery that sparked a realization about the absence of spirituality in his life. Martin discovered that spirituality at work holds the potential to enhance authenticity, trust, and engagement. The conversation unfolds to explore the positive impact of framing spirituality as an ongoing inquiry rather than a fixed answer, highlighting the importance of creating a safe and permissible space for people to explore and express their spiritual dimensions in the workplace.
Part two of my conversation with Martin Rutte should be posted in a few months. Stay tuned!
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Spirituality In The Workplace With Martin Rutte
I am very happy. We're going international. We're bringing in a special guest to the show, Martin Rutte, author, speaker, conference organizer, and pioneer in the space of business and spirituality. Thank you for being with me/us. Martin, welcome.
It’s a pleasure to be with you. Thank you.
May I ask where you are?
I'm in our cottage in DeSable, Prince Edward Island, Canada.
It sounds lovely.
It is.
I understand you've been doing some international travel, so welcome back.
Thank you.
I'm pleased that you're here and participating in this. You were an important influence and your conference was on me. The first exposure I ever had to something formal around business and spirituality was a conference here in Santa Fe, my new home back, in 1996 called Bridging Business and Spirituality. You were in the middle of that. I'd love to hear how you would describe how you began to work in this space. Later, I'd love to hear how it has evolved in the following decades. What got you started in this space and why business and spirituality?
Thank you, Andrew. I am a management consultant. I've worked with large companies in the US and Canada such as Sony Pictures, Virgin Records, and Southern California Edison on the topic of vision. In the late ‘80s, we were still living in Canada before we moved to the States. I'd come back from speaking in Hong Kong at the joint meeting of the Canadian-American Business Commerce in Hong Kong. I went into this funk and I didn't know why. Was it my marriage? No, it is a good marriage. Was it my work? No, I loved my work. What was going on? I couldn't put my finger on it.
I ended up being a good Jewish guy. I was at an Augustinian monastery, north of Toronto. Naturally, where else would you go? On a Sunday morning, there was a service. I went and I sat at the back because obviously, I’m not Catholic. This thought popped into my head. It's about God. I remember sitting there, bursting into tears, going, “That's it. That's what's missing.” I having no idea what that meant but I knew that these two pieces of wood that had separated in my life, representationally, had now come together.
I go back to my company. I had a consulting company, training, seminars, and speaking in Toronto. I speak to my staff and say,” I want to talk about spirituality at work.” “No. You cannot talk about that. People will think you're proselytizing, that you're trying to shove something down their throat.” Every single person that I spoke to in Toronto said, “You cannot do this.”
What year was that?
Early ‘80s. That summer, I went to Los Angeles and I met with many friends there, including Jack Canfield from Chicken Soup for the Soul at Work. I said, “I want to talk about spirituality at work.” “Yeah.” “I said I want to talk about spirituality in work.” “I heard you.” “You have no reaction?” “No.” It was like I was talking about paper clips at work. All of a sudden, the penny dropped. I thought, “It's my fear about how you would react when I had to bring up the topic of spirituality at work. That's the issue.”
In Toronto, everybody says, “No.” In LA, everybody goes, “What's your point?” Andrew, the difference was so crystal clear and shocking. I go back to Toronto and I say to the same people, “I want to talk about spirituality.” “No, you can't.” Now my head was in a different space and I said, “Wait a minute. I have not defined what I mean by spirituality, and I'm not asking you for anything. I'm saying I want to talk about it.” “You cannot.” I knew I had to use words like vision, truth, ethics, or morality. I said, “Where's the ethics of using a code word for what I want to talk about? I'm not going to do that.” I had to crack that puzzle. All of a sudden, one day, the penny dropped.
Some people think of spirituality in work as proselytizing. The essence of proselytizing is, “I have an answer. This is what spirituality in work is, and I'm going to shove it down your throat,” which was not in the slightest idea in my head. I'm Jewish. Jews don't do that, but it kept coming up over and over again.
I thought, “If what you're afraid of is my proselytizing, then spirituality must live as the answer. I have the answer. I'm going to shove this down your throat.” What if instead of living as an answer, it lived as a question, and to make it easy for you to understand in business, what if it was an inquiry or an ongoing question? Look, you in business are in an inquiry called, “How do I make my business more successful?” Every day you ask that question ongoingly. Whatever answer you come up with, it's not the finality. You keep asking and asking because that deepens and broadens the field.
I said, “What if spirituality in the workplace lives not as an answer but as a question or an inquiry? People say, “Before we start, Martin, could you define what you mean by spirituality in work?” I would always say, “No because if I do and you disagree with me, it’s the end of the conversation. If I do and you agree with me, in a sense, it’s the end of the conversation as well. I want to open this conversation. I want to make it safe, permissible, and acceptable for you to talk about spirituality in the workplace if you choose. That's important to me. If you don't, fine. You have to know that it's okay to say no.”
Here's what's interesting, Andrew. Once I reframed it as inquiry and that it's okay to say no, and I honestly mean that, it’s like the dam blew open. They want to talk about it. Then the next question was, “How do we talk about it in a way that's engaging?” Let me stop there because that was the first major point. It doesn't live as an answer. It lives as an ongoing question inquiry.
Spirituality doesn't live as an answer. It lives as an ongoing inquiry.
With the absence of proselytizing and, “I'm going to tell you what's good for you and what you need,” suddenly, this is a space that feels less threatening, less dogmatic, and less fearful.
Also, more permissible. Let me look at a new topic called Conversations in the Workplace. Thirty-four years ago, the only thing I could speak to you about in the workplace with permission was profitability, revenue, expenses, human resource questions, marketing, and acceptable conversations. With respect to me as an individual, it’s my career aspirations. That was it. Over the years, more of the individuals came in, “I'm gay. I'm Black. I'm a woman. I'm an alcoholic. I have mental issues. I have drug issues.”
Each time one of those conversations came, “You can't talk about that because it's going to upset the workplace. It'll reduce productivity. Plus, as a manager, I have no idea how to handle those issues.” You'll notice what's happened with each of those issues is we found ways to speak about them and to engage people if they choose that were useful both for the individual and the enterprise.
Spirituality in the workplace is on that spectrum. It's the newest conversation that's not permissible and that is becoming more permissible, which we'll talk about. It's a conversation that's wanted in the workplace, but the fear is you're going to proselytize. Take that away. The space opens. It's okay to say no. The dam burst open.
I have to acknowledge the delightful irony of the Augustinian monastery healing your Hong Kong thing. It’s beautiful. This is a dangerous question. In law school, we're taught never to ask this question, but it's the why question. At the time, as you had that moment or that epiphany in the back of that monastery, was it like, “Why do I want to do this?” Was it a personal calling? Was it a vision of what business could become? What was the why to the extent that you're clear about that?
It was a spiritual upset. This is a new language for me. It was a spiritual upset when I came back from Hong Kong and I couldn't put my finger on it. It wasn't external. It wasn't wife. It wasn't work. When I got that it was in here, going to the monastery, and the click was it's about God, I was like, “That's it.” I knew that was it. I had no idea how to do it or what I was going to do. It didn't matter to me. I just knew that's it, good. That solves the issue. That solves the longing. That solves the two pieces of carpet wood being separated, and now they're together. “Good. Let's begin,” and so I began.
I'm inferring here that it's not as though in that moment in the monastery, you had a flashback to some deeply religious experience from your past. It wasn't like, “I reconnected with this training, tradition, or something like that. It was more of something in the present that grabbed you to pull you forward, not something from your past that was pushing you in any way. Is that fair?
That's fair at the time. I am religious in terms of Judaism. That's becoming more and more important to me. At the time, it was such a clear thing. It was the first time that I heard the word vision. I went, “That's it.” I knew this was it, especially when people said, “You can't do it well.” I love that. "What do you mean you can't do it?”
How did you then begin to bridge the gap and what was key for you to help make that happen?
What I began to look for were ways to open the conversation globally. I wanted huge leverage points. When I was in Toronto, I was instrumental in helping create the first conference on spirituality in the workplace. I wasn't the leader of it, but I was part of the committee. When I was in Santa Fe, Jim Berry and Marty Raphael began the spirituality in workplace conference there in Santa Fe. I spoke at a small business or entrepreneurs’ group about spirituality in work. They came up to me and said, “We've been thinking about doing a conference. What do you think?” I jumped on it. I knew he had long hair, tie-dye shirt, and I thought, “He'll never do it wrong.”
We did 6 or 7 international conferences. They were magnificent. I set up a center for spirituality in the workplace at the Sobey School of Business at Saint Mary's University in Halifax, Canada. I wanted to say to the academic world, “This is an acceptable conversation, not only in the academic world but in the business school academic world.”
The then-dean came to me and said, “Let's talk. Can we use the word values instead of spiritual?” I said, “No.” He looked at me and said, “Okay.” It was as simple as that. The president was on board. They gave us an office. I raised funds. They were phenomenal. We had PhD students. We did public lectures. We did courses. One course still continues to this day.
There was a PhD student in business who went there and saw our office and it said “The Centre for Spirituality in the Workplace.” Just seeing that sign told him that it was okay for him to do what he wanted, which was to get his PhD in Spirituality in Work, which he did. I was instrumental in other conferences around the world, New Zealand and the US, and tons of media because the media was interested, “What do you mean spirituality in the workplace? That's nuts. You can't talk about that.”
I went for business media, not regular. I wanted the business media to do it. There was a Journal of Management, Spirituality, & Religion, an academic journal. I played a tiny part in helping that get off because I thought, “You need a journal. Academics need a place to publish to legitimize this.” It’s all of that to make the conversation permissible, safe, and comfortable if you choose.
Now Princeton has Faith & Work Initiative. The University of Arkansas has the Center for Faith and Spirituality, which is brilliant. That was David Miller's genius in naming that. Part of this is I do support the religious aspect because, for some people, spirituality in the workplace is clearly religious. For some, it is not. Fine. My only condition would be not that you impose it on people.
I don't want to go down the rabbit hole with this one. I'm curious if there's still a course available at St. Mary's. Is that open? Could people take that if they're around the world? Do you know if that's an option? I'm curious.
I don't know, but his name is David Sable. It's in the School of Religion. It's moved over there. Last I heard.
I'm curious to know. If you went to the media with this, and you said it was the business media, how did the business media respond as you might have expected? Were you surprised by how they responded?
The first thing they need to know is that you're a legitimate voice here. I always talk about my consulting background and the corporations that I've worked with. I'm a co-author of a New York Times business bestseller, Chicken Soup for the Soul at Work. I've spoken at Harvard on vision four times. I've spoken in Hong Kong. All of that is true and adds credibility to me as a speaker.
Chicken Soup for the Soul at Work: 101 Stories of Courage, Compassion & Creativity in the Workplace
Once they know that this is not some airy-fairy-flighty thing, then, “Okay, I'm interested in it.” What media always wants is, “What's the hook?” The hook is this is something new that's coming into business. What's the benefit? More ethical and moral behavior. I remember there was a doctor from AT&T and a lot of young employees were booking off sick, clearly lying about it, but there was nothing AT&T could do. When she started to investigate it, she found that their heart and soul was not at work. It was elsewhere. She was fascinated by this in the sense of, “Can we bring the soul at work to work to engage people?”
It's one of the things that people at work have. I don't know if you've heard of the term discretionary energy. “You can't force me. You pay me X amount to do this.” The discretionary is what I can add to it. If the workplace is a place that encourages, supports, nourishes, and nurtures my soul, I'll want to do more organically and freely give that. In one sense, it is a business advantage, but it can't be used as a manipulative business advantage.
“I'm going to hook your heart. Here's my four-step plan to hook your heart.” I don't think that would fly well. Even then, that was some years ago, the AT&T. It was talking about a lack of engagement in the spiritual, however she might define it.
It’s causing people to check out of work. They didn't want that, which makes total sense to me. Plus, the more authentic you are, the more genuine you are, let's say those are code words in a good sense for spirituality in work, the more the workplace works. You and I both know when we're called in as consultants, one of the things that works is to get them to tell the truth about what's going on in a safe atmosphere. When they hear their collective truth, they know what to do. For me, that's an issue of spirituality in the workplace.
Couldn't we bring the soul to work to engage people?
I'd love to hear more. Tell me about that connection. Does it have to do with the underlying truth? Is that the spiritual component of it? Is it a level of depth? What you're tapping is interesting. There have been other themes in some other conversations on this show. What's the gateway, not from a manipulative point of view but when we're in this place, the spiritual dimension is present, if you will. For you, there's something about truth and surfacing what's going on. Am I hearing that right?
You are, Andrew. What I found in my consulting practice, I interview, say the management team one by one and tease out, “Where are we? Where do we want to go? How are we going to get there?” The safer they feel with me, the safer they feel about speaking that. When we come together as a collective group, I manage the meeting so that that truth can come out to whatever extent the person wants to do it. The more truth in the room, the more the room knows what to do.
Me telling them, it's them telling them after they hear. Plus, Stephen Covey, the son, not the father has done a whole bunch of work on trust, and his book is called The Speed of Trust. If I trust you, we can be more efficient and effective because I take you at your word and you keep your word. Also, humor, play, ethics, morality, and integrity. The words sound conservative in one sense, and they are. Those are values that last. They're not flighty values. They're deep values that are held.
People know when you're BS-ing them and when you're telling the truth. Prior to that, spirituality was okay in the home and in places of worship. Now what's beginning to happen, especially with all the hoo-ha going on in the world today. The more that essence of spirituality comes into the workplace, the more productive and satisfying the accomplishments of being at work are rather than checking my soul at the door. They're not useful anymore. Especially the Millennials, our age and the age before us gave up. That was all right. Millennials don't want to do that. Generation X, Z, and all that stuff don't want to give up on that.
They don't want to separate that way.
If you're a good manager, you realize that and you know what will happen when that false separation is allowed to come back together.
What I hear you saying is that in your framework, and this framework could be informed by four decades in this space, but in your framework truth, honesty, purpose, and engagement are essentially spiritual dimensions whether they be small s or big S or whatever. For you, those are connected. I don't disagree with you. I'm trying to flesh that out a little bit. How do you respond to someone who might say, “That's spiritual? That's what you mean by spirituality?”
You're getting into the trap again. I would respond by, “Okay, then forget it. What does it mean to you?” I'll give you a story. I did a talk to a women’s fashion group out in Oregon years ago. We went around the room and I said, “What's spirituality in the workplace for you?” “Ethics, morality, more heartfeltness, and compassion.” One woman said, “Better drinks in the soft drink dispenser.”
I thought, “What that has got to do with anything?” but I didn't say anything. We go around and we finish. I went back to the woman. I said, “Can you help me understand this? What does that mean?” She said, “It's obvious. If you go to the soft drink dispenser and there are sugar drinks and garbage drinks, it's going to affect your body, which is where your soul is. I want good drinks in the drink’s dispenser.”
She taught me something important. Ask them what it is for them. They'll tell you because whatever they want to start is where they want to start. What's important to me is that you begin with your definition of what spirituality in the workplace is, and then take a small little step in the next 24 hours and the next 24, so that you begin to build this momentum.
When I started this in the early ‘80s, and you picked it up, it's like, “Spirituality in the workplace. You can't talk about that.” Once I got, “Yes, you can,” and, “Yes, I'm going to,” you'll see the next step. Take that and make sure it's a step that you know you can be successful at because you'll build a sense of momentum of, “We really are doing this.”
I feel as though this could be at least a seven-part conversation. I don't know. I suppose we were deeply religious. There'd be some number that had some meaningful significance, 7, 5, 10, or 12. Twelve is a good one but whatever the number of conversations would be, I'm wondering if we could pivot at this point. I'm looking at the time here. I'd love to hear if the next chapter could be, “What have you learned and what could you teach me or us about how things have evolved and where they're going in terms of promoting those healthy conversations?”
I'd love to get to Project Heaven on Earth but I'd love to hear more about years ago, we were talking about AT&T. The vending machine thing is great. I'm going to remember that story. Over the years, how has it changed? I don't want to use all this up because I want to make it part of our conversation, but now, psychological safety, as you said, discretionary efforts. So much more of this is measured. Engagement is measured. It wasn't in the ‘80s. It wasn't in the ‘90s.
How has the world caught up with what you're talking about in terms of, “How can I feel more of a sense of meaning, purpose, and values in my work?” (Maybe some people would call that spiritual.) The world is caught up. I want to let you tell the story, not me, but that in itself, there's some time to be spent with that. What do you think?
For me, the purpose of this conversation was to open it up from a historical perspective. Honestly, I have not followed a lot about what's going on. I was going to do this keynote address in Santa Fe at one of the conferences. I was in the green room meditating. I thought, “If every business in the world is spiritual, is that what you want?” I said, “No. If we could transform business, we could transform the world.” I said, “Heaven on earth.”
Andrew, I knew that was the next phase of my life. It was very clear. These last 30 years. Plus, there are people who have taken spirituality in work and run with it. The academic journal, a guy named David Miller, a wonderful man at Princeton, who you should have on your show, a man named Andre Delbecq, who passed away, did Spirituality and Leadership.
I've seen some of his writings. Beautiful.
He was, and a heart and a great mind. A woman named Judi Neal.
Judi and I are set to talk soon. That's interesting. Not on this necessarily, but great because she does a lot of somatic leadership work.
I don't know her new work, but she was one of the pioneers along with me, very clearly. She was the first Executive Director of the Tyson Center for Faith and Spirituality at the University of Arkansas. I set her up for that job. She's amazing. She could talk historically as well, and the flowering of it. David Miller could talk. He worked for IBM as a consultant or something. I've forgotten what he was doing. He got his Degree in Divinity and for his PhD, did Spirituality in Work. He came to my house because I had all the documents from the early years. It was a treasure trove, which now the University of Arkansas has.
He was from there and he's gone. It's called the Faith & Work Initiative at Princeton. You should see who's on his board. It's a who's who of big business. He's jumped it to a national level, at a high level, a national US level. There's a guy Jerry Biberman from the University of Pittsburgh and the guy Yochanan Altman. I will send them to you as well because they're academics who took this and ran with it.
There was a conference several weeks ago. I'll get you that because I sent it to David. He knew about it. There was a conference on business and spirituality. It’s still going on. When David wrote back about that conference, he said, “It's gone mainstream now.” There's not as much of a pushback to the topic idea as there was. Individually, there is. “I'm afraid to talk about this and what will happen,” which is why what I said in this interview was so important. I want people to know that they're not alone. In the early conferences in Santa Fe, I remember one guy coming, “I thought I was the only one thinking about this.” To normalize it in the early days was important.
It's still important now. In that, it has come up a lot in these conversations that I've had. This is a wonderful conversation, Martin. I feel as though we could be at a bit of a pivot point. I will welcome you back. I'll provide the coffee for the conversation. I don't know what would be Halifax-appropriate, forgive me, in terms of offerings, but I'll get it to continue the conversation. Chapter two of our conversation would be about, “What now?” In this conversation, the seeds have been planted, things are starting to bloom a little bit, now what? I'd love for you to speak more about that in part two. Is that okay?
Yes. With pleasure.
Thank you. To close this part of the conversation, what would you want me, and I'm a student here, and whoever is tuning in to know about? What are the key takeaways? What are the key points about initiating a conversation about spirituality in the workplace? What works? What doesn't? What can we learn from your experience?
You used a keyword which is initiate. If this conversation rings true for you, your soul, and your spirit, a soul deeper, and you want to begin, the act is to begin. How? Begin talking to people with whom you feel safe in a small way. I'm interested in talking about spirituality in work, not in terms of shoving anything down your throat, but I'm interested in opening that conversation because it's something that interests me and could be nourishing for me. If it is for you, fine. If it's not, that's fine. It has to be totally clear that this is an invitation to which a no is as an appropriate answer as a yes. If they say yes, don't tell them what it means to you because then they'll react to it. Ask them what it means to them.
Ethics, morality, purpose, meaning, better drinks than the soft, whatever it is for them, begin there and ask them what small easy step they'll take in the next 24 hours to move that forward. The step has to be small and easy and something that they know they're going to be successful at. Not, “I'm going to begin a new university. I'm dedicated to spirituality in work,” unless that's easy for you and you know you can do it, but something that's easy and that you'll be successful.
You begin to get these successes. You can feel a sense of momentum building here so that the conversation becomes acceptable, safe, and nourishing for you and for others. Watch the reaction. If they react negatively, immediately stop. Don't go any more forward. Say, “I'm sorry. This is as far as I want to go with you. If it upsets you or in any way, plugs you in, stop.” If, however, they say, “I'm more interested.” “Tell me more about what it is for you. How would you get more of that in your workplace starting now?”
It becomes interesting because what you've done is you've intrigued them. What's one small thing? There's a woman in the States. Her name was Pat Sullivan. She did something called the Workplace Altars Project. She went around to workplaces asking them what spiritual or religious things they had on their desks or in their desks. It was for a paper.
It’s simple. Go online. Look at spirituality in workbooks, anything that will move it forward so that your soul feels we're on the right track here on the right path. I feel nourished by doing this. That's what kept me in this game for so many years. My wife says, “How many times have you said the same thing?” I go, “I don't know, 17 billion?” but it's still fresh for me.
I would imagine that part of why it still feels fresh is because the people with whom you're speaking are expressing themselves differently and expressing their individual values, priorities, motivations, and perhaps stories, upbringing, etc. That's what's fresh.
The other thing I see occurring is my desire to have spirituality be part of the conversation in the workplace continues expanding. That's nourishing for me.
I hope it continues to be for you. When we continue in part two or whenever we want to do this, we'll talk about what you've been working on, your book, the movement, if you will, if I could call it that. We'll keep our audience in suspense about what that means. I look forward to continuing that conversation before too long. Now that you're back in the country, we'll get back on your calendar.
Thank you. You can find out more about me at MartinRutte.com. Thank you for this interview.
You're quite welcome. It's a pleasure to speak with you.