The Power Of Developing The Bigger Parts Of Ourselves With Leslie Boyer
Leslie Boyer has been a valued consultant and guide for people around the world for several decades. Her work helps people live their lives with authenticity and courage, changing perspectives so as to live the best versions of themselves. In this interview, she talks with Andrew about her background in teaching in challenging environments and where her intention to serve has led her. She also talks about the impact of deep listening as well as storytelling to create genuine human connections. Her purpose-driven work about "growing the bigger parts of ourselves" is practical and powerful in many ways.
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The Power Of Developing The Bigger Parts Of Ourselves With Leslie Boyer
I am your host, guide, and fellow traveler Andrew Cohn along with my very special guest, an old friend, Leslie Boyer. Old as in the number of years, not in anyone's age. Not that that matters, which we could talk about as well. Thank you so much for being with me today. By way of background, we met many years ago or so in an inside seminar in Los Angeles. I was growing my experience as an assistant and some service work. After I did that seminar with you, I assisted in Russia and Bulgaria and was inspired to bring some of that wonderful transformational work out into the world.
We've stayed in touch in different ways. I've always admired the work that you do and the practical yet infused with something bigger than the typical business speak. I aspire to that as well. Thanks for being one of my teachers along the way and for being here. This show is new as I shared with you. I look forward to hearing how you would define some of the things that I've teed up for you and some of the questions I sent. Tell me what you think where is the most important to start, with a little bit of your background, and how it connects to this topic.
My name is Leslie Boyer and I have a small boutique consulting firm. My background was in personal development. I always knew I wanted to teach. I started out as a kindergarten teacher and then I graduated to high-risk teens positive life skills and then I moved into working with adults. I’m looking at the power of purpose, committing to yourself, loving yourself, honoring yourself and others, etc., and then I made the leap into corporate. I started working with David Allen who wrote a book called Getting Things Done, which is a beautiful methodology for managing workflow that has a basis.
It's quite Zen although we don't talk about that usually with the client, but it helps to bring people present. I've traveled globally doing all this work. I lived in Europe for six years. I had a company there. I moved back to the US and now I'm a solopreneur. For me, it's inherent in human beings to want to do better and be better. If you call it the spiritual or that aspect of ourselves, integrating that into our day-to-day lives, I love what I call practical spirituality. It's about how will I make the teachings of the bigger part of ourselves functional and practical on a day-to-day basis.
I want to hear more about your background and your story, whatever parts of it you'd want to tell. I need to ask you this. How does the experience of teaching kindergarten help you in the corporate world?
I'm teaching big kids. There's a part of us as humans that has this aspect of ourselves that wants to be seen, valued, cared for, and understood like kids. I don't treat adults like kids but there is an aspect of us that has some of the same needs. Sometimes, we overprotect ourselves around that, “I don't need anything.” To thrive, we need human connection and interaction. For me, working with kids initially, the vision was unleashing potential in children. When I started teaching, the educational system wasn't built that way.
I got disillusioned and I was like, “What?” Then I came across Insight Seminars, which is about unleashing human potential, self-care, honoring yourself, and making better choices in your life. That's how I made the leap into that. Initially, I got into teaching because I had an experience in high school that made me aware of the power of teaching and how the teacher interacts with the students. I decided to move to the Georgia-Alabama border and work with deeply impoverished children.
That was not from where you came. You were not from there.
No. We moved a lot when I was a kid. At that point, I was living in St. Petersburg, Florida, finishing my Education degree. I was there and I was like, “I want to work with these kids.” What I became was a glorified babysitter. It was tough. These kids were in survival mode. They weren't in a place to be receptive and the system or the curriculum was so minimal that it was glorified babysitting. I got frustrated because I had been reading about alternative education and possibility. None of that was taking place where I was at that time in the educational system. I left dismayed and distraught. I thought I had my life purpose, but that's not it. I went searching and came across Insight Seminars.
That's where I was working initially with teens and at-risk teens, teaching them positive life skills, and then I moved into adult training and development work. I’m working with people who are pretty good and want to get better because I realize it's not my job to save people. People have to save themselves. They have to want to change. I traveled around doing that, then I started working with David Allen in Getting Things Done.
That was the corporate work. I got into executive coaching, doing productivity development. I travel globally doing that. I moved to Germany and started my own company with a German partner. I was there for six years. I got into high-performing teamwork and relocated back to the States. I hung out my own shingle and have been doing my own conglomeration of activities, a foot in the profit-for-profit world and a foot in a not-for-profit world.
The journey continues.
It does. It never ends.
One of the hypotheses of this show, and I appreciate your help and clarifying this, is that each of us has these core spiritual dimensions. The way I define this course, Spiritual Dimensions, is it is a taken interpretation of what Ron and Mary Hulnick do at the University of Santa Monica with that course Self Level Below the Physical Level and the Levels of the Ego. These are what I would call Universal Spiritual Principles like acceptance, loving, forgiveness, and peace. Perhaps Zen, if we were to check in with David Allen about this, to your point. Hypothesis part two is that these aspects of ourselves are needed more than ever in the workplace. I work primarily in the corporate space. Sometimes in the not-for-profit.
The invitation or the opportunity is to bring these deeper spiritual dimensions into the workplace for the benefit of ourselves, our own happiness, productivity, efficiency, and effectiveness. Also, to invite our teams to do the same and to de-dogmatize this notion of things that might be considered spiritual so that we can have useful conversations. Not conversations about our church experiences but conversations that demonstrate and practice these levels of awareness, skills, abilities, and mindsets that we have from developing more of these core spiritual dimensions.
I wonder for you, having worked in Germany for six years and worked all over the place, how does geography impact the openness of individuals, particularly in the workplace, to talk about some of these themes like acceptance, forgiveness, and peace? How does that play in different places? I have my own ideas about that but please tell me your experience.
I traveled extensively globally and one of the things I learned is it's very helpful to have an awareness of the culture where you're presenting because there are different norms and values. Americans tend to be myopic. They think the world should operate and think like they do. They're not all but there's a tendency there. One of the things that I love is learning about other cultures. When I was in Germany, I was working with a big German global organization. They had affiliates in India. I was dealing with cultural differences between India and Germany. That was fascinating because the Germans were very direct. They don't care so much how you feel and what you do. The Indians want peace at any price. They love harmony so directness can upset that. How do you bridge that?
Shift Consulting: Consultants must have an awareness of the culture they are presenting to. This way, they can appropriately cater to different norms and values.
I think it can be useful as a consultant or presenter to at least have some understanding of what you're walking into and meeting people where they are because when people feel heard, seen, and understood, they tend to open and then you can go into those kinds of conversations. Most people want to be seen and want to know that you're not trying to change them. They are being respected for who they are and most importantly, being heard. Listening is a highly underrated skill. Deep listening is one of the greatest gifts you can give someone. I take that approach. I need to get educated before I go in and start working.
In Germany, it is vastly different than the American culture. I live in California. When you take German to us then German to California, it's an even wider gap. The Germans tend to be more mental in their approach and Americans tend to be more emotional. Knowing how to have credence, you got to present in a way that they can go, “She knows what she's talking about. She knows what they're talking about.” They need to demonstrate credibility and then they're open. It's learning how to be multi-dimensional in your approach, not just skew it out and then go, “Here's what I'm presenting. I hope you get it.” You have to meet people where they are, walk with them, and then they can start building trust and openness. We can then go into the broader conversation.
A client of mine, the CEO of a US company that had a partner organization in Germany used to say to me that in Germany, they have an engineering culture. In the US, we tend to have a performing culture like actors, singers, and performers of that type. Maybe it’s an oversimplification but I hear where he was coming from.
That's my experience. I had to go into most groups. I was talking to a bunch of engineers. They don't care how much you know until they know that you know what you're talking about.
It is different than what I've heard here, which is they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. The caring piece may not be as valued in certain parts of Germany. Maybe in Northern Germany. I was working with a group at Wharton in Philadelphia and a gentleman stood up and said, “I'm from the North of Germany.”
There are subcultures in every country. I remember when I went to Sweden to do group work on some group presentation work, what I realized is that Sweden is a socialistic country and the whole thing around socialism is equality. You don't want to appear better and you don't want to appear worse. It's all about homogenizing. When I say, “Who has something they want to share?” No one would raise their hand because they'd stand out. What do I have to do? That's cultural, so I would then have them get into small groups and talk amongst themselves. It was a five-day workshop. Once they did that, by the morning of day three, I could go, “Who wants to share?” I then just sit there, not say anything, and make a lot of space. Eventually, someone would raise their hand.
In the US, if you go, “Who would like to share?” Fifteen hands go up or five maybe. They're engaged that way, so you've got a bridge through the culture. Understanding the differences that it’s not bad. It’s just different. Having that awareness can be immensely helpful. I'm not just talking about global cultures. I'm talking about cultures that people carry individually because our cultures are formed by our family, neighborhood, or the state in which we live. We have a different culture in California than in Texas. It's being sensitive and meeting people where they are and having an understanding of their innate values so you can connect, and then you can start to have deeper conversations.
I appreciate what you're saying about the willingness of people to share things that are more personal. There may not be more or less willingness but how you open the door to that can be different. It’s to be equipped with different tools in your toolkit to allow people to express more of what's important to them.
Often, I found that a way to open the door is through stories. People love to tell stories about themselves.
Find a way to open doors through storytelling. People love to tell stories about themselves.
This may sound glaringly obvious but there are a number of ways to answer this question. I'm curious how you would. What's the value of people telling their stories, particularly in the corporate space?
It creates a connection, bottom line. You get a small group and go, “What shaped you as a leader? What were your defining moments or experiences?” If they share that openly and honestly, people start to develop empathy and understanding. “That's why they act like this or that's why this is so important to them.” Storytelling has been handed down for centuries and it's as important now. What's your story? Our stories are formed by perception, belief systems, and experience. It's an insight into all of that. Part of the work I do is let's change your story if it's not working for you.
Beautiful and interesting because when I hear you talk about that, what I hear about is the impact. I may not align with you or connect with you as much if I hear your conclusions and opinions. If I hear the story that leads you to those conclusions and opinions, I’ll be like, “Now I have something I can connect to perhaps a little bit more readily.”
Often, in the first conversations I have, all I do is ask questions.
It goes back to your point about listening and the key importance of listening.
Most people when they're in a conversation are thinking of their answer instead of listening. I would challenge people. When you're in a conversation, try only asking questions. Notice how often you want to give advice, fix something, or make a point. Ask questions. “Tell me more. What does that mean? Help me understand this. Do you mean?” It's a very powerful tool and most people have not developed that skill. When people feel heard, they feel connected. They open and a deeper conversation can take place.
I hate to ask a why question but what is it about us human beings? There are differences in different regions, cultures, and subcultures. I often like to talk about functional cultures as well. I was a lawyer in my first life and lawyer culture is very different than executive coach culture. It's different and we're talking generalities. Why is it so difficult for people to listen?
It’s because they probably were not heard as children. They feel that they need to express themselves. They feel overly responsible for making something happen, fixing something, giving advice, and helping. We're not raised in a culture, at least in the US, that deeply values listening, pausing, and space. This is especially can be true with the Millennials. The Gen Z's I'm noticing, being on electronic devices, their brains function faster because they're able to process information more quickly.
Slowing down is not always easy for them unless they're very intentional about it. They can slow down but I listen to their rate of speed when they speak. They're trying to have their voice keep up with the pace of their mind. They're listening. There's a quote about people largely speak to hear themselves speak. They're not listening. They just want to hear what they have to say. Sometimes it's important to do that, but that will override the conversation.
When I hear you describe that, what occurs to me is maybe we're not even listening to ourselves. I want to hear myself speak because I'm not hearing perhaps even what I'm thinking. I was reading something about the speech thought differential and how we can think so much faster than we can speak. As we're listening, we can become disengaged. It’s like, “Come on. Get to the point.” You want someone's words to you to be as fast as the thoughts in your head, which is not possible because we think so fast. Our minds tend to drift. This is a trainable skill. Thank God it's a trainable skill, but our minds tend to go in different directions. The way you're describing this, particularly with technology, how do we address this? How do we teach people to listen or more accurately, invite them to listen?
There's a person I studied with, Frank Sopper, who has an organization called Kairos. He studied how people learn. He broke it down into reading, listening, moving, observing, and talking. He has a way of measuring how people learn. Some people are high talkers. They process information by speaking it out. Other people process information as they read. You've got to understand, it's not one size fits all. Who are you speaking with? What's their dominant mode? There are some times when I ask a question and half an hour later, I'm still listening to their answer because they're working it out as they talk it out. Being able to understand that nuance of when someone needs to talk something through and when are they no longer engaged in a conversation because they're speaking to fill space.
The former sounds like this is an important thing to do to get clarity, let the brown water become clear, and lead to a place that's a better place than before they started, either in terms of their own clarity and/or the value to connect to others, etc. The latter you describe sounds like it's almost more of an indulgence and an unconscious habit that's not necessarily getting anywhere. I hope that doesn't sound harsh, Does that make sense?
It does and for me, as a coach and a presenter, my work is to be as clear and empty as possible. I'm not reacting from my own egoic place but I hold a container for them. If they're talking just to talk, I may intervene and go, “Are you aware?” To me, in leaders, one of the most important qualities of a leader is self-awareness. Most people either overestimate or underestimate their impact on others. How they see us is different than how we see ourselves. That's tough for a lot of leaders because it challenges the ego of who they think they are. In listening, I can start to watch the patterns of their speech and what they focus on and that becomes a useful springboard for a deeper conversation.
One of the most important leadership qualities is self-awareness. Most people either overestimate or underestimate their impact on others.
Another dividend of effective listening is what I hear you talking about. It’s very cool. When you talk about the holding space, the listening, the allowing for clarity to emerge as a result of talking one's way to clarity, what you're demonstrating at those times is operating from that deeper place because you're listening with a mindset of acceptance, caring, and patience. I'm curious to know what is it that you do or don't do that helps you operate from that place. At a very practical level, what helps you show up as that more open vessel for people?
I’m constantly checking what my agenda is, which comes out of my ego and my identity of how I want to be perceived or who I think I am. For years, I self-reflect and I also get feedback. It's like, “Why did I say it that way? Did I want recognition, to be seen, or approved of? Did I want to look smart? Did I want to have a sense of control over what was going on? What is my deeper motivation in my communication and what I'm doing?” When you mentioned patience, patience is interesting because patience means you need to wait for a future event. There's something in the future that's not happening now and so you've got to be patient. I look at patience and I define it a little differently.
It's simply being present. When you're fully present, there is no impatience. There's no future. You're here now and you're responding clearly and cleanly to what's being presented in this moment without an agenda of, “I need to control it.” There are times when I'm working with people and I go, “We need to shift this conversation.” I'll redirect it. I'm doing it from a perspective of how am I serving this person. Is what they're doing serving themselves? It's in service to a greater opportunity and peace of awareness that could serve them.
When I hear you describe what it is that you do, I hear a real strong curiosity and courage to shine. Whatever light it is for you as you may see it to these parts of yourselves and checking in with yourself is what I'm hearing, combined with an intention to serve. To look inward and see how you can be heard, and look outward to see how you can best serve and support. Does that seem to fit?
Yeah. It's been a lifetime of work. This is not an overnight one-and-done. It's a constant self-check and self-evaluation. In doing that, I've learned to trust my inner guidance and my intuitional hits. Someone will say something and a word will pop out. I’d say, “I reflect that word but tell me more about that.” Most of the time, it leads to a deeper conversation. As the coach and the presenter, I need to take full responsibility for my inner environment and awareness around my agendas, attachments, and ego, and work with that to minimize that impact. It's not to destroy my ego but to be aware of how it plays, and then course-correct as I go along. I do that through working with a lot of meditation to clear, let go, and different techniques that I do to keep my consciousness moving forward and being clear.
I hear not only the value that could be added in facilitating conversation, teaching, or presenting. Not only, which is huge, but also modeling what that looks like in front of a room and perhaps inviting people to do some of the same. I'm sure many people have asked you this over the years. How do you even start to activate this curiosity and courage about what's going on inside of me, my ego, and whatever story I'm running? Also, whatever fears that showing up in inconvenience and opportune ways. Where do I even get started for that type of reflection so that I can listen better and be more present? How do you advise them or talk to them about that?
A couple of things come to mind for me. One, the first step is to commit. In my teen years, I knew there was something greater than what was going on around me happening in life. I got very curious and I was committed to what is this thing. I don't even know what it is. I committed to this path of “I want to become the best person. I want to undo or heal the pain, the trauma, the self-doubt, and the self-judgment.” That is no fun for me, but I do it. I made a commitment in my late teens that I was going to heal.
I'm going to do whatever it takes. It takes commitment and great courage because most people shy away from their pain instead of going, “What is the gift in this? What is the learning in this?” Everything I look at is what the learning is. I think you mentioned that. If I can approach what's the learning instead of what's the disaster, behind all of that is learning. It's always positive for me when I go in and face those deep dark places of myself. It also requires trust that something greater than myself is there to support me.
Most people shy away from their pain instead of seeking the learning opportunity from it.
I would submit that it is some spiritual framework. It's something larger than yourself. We don't have to call it spiritual but it's something metaphysical. It's bigger than us. I think Martin Luther King said that the planet will change when the power of love becomes greater than the love of power. As I hear you describe your process journey a little bit, I hear you saying that the trust in something greater or the trust in what's with you or in you is greater than the fear, doubt, or whatever it may be that all of us humans carry around, and what's driving some of these behaviors or thoughts that don't necessarily serve us.
When I was a teen, I got into experimenting with drugs. In high school, LSD was the drug of choice. One weekend, my friends all got together and I had to be with my family. Monday morning, we're back at school and they're like, “We saw God in a candle flame.” I went, “I want that. I want whatever that is. How am I going to find God?” That was my first opening to there is something bigger, something greater. I started exploring a bunch of spiritual paths, mostly Eastern mysticism. It took me a little time and then I found a spiritual teacher who has a very specific spiritual practice of meditating, service, loving, and forgiveness. I went, “I need that. That's what I'm going to participate in.” The ongoing practice has transformed me and my experience of myself in my own life.
Also, the work that you do out in the world in serving so many people in so many different ways. Thank you to those high school friends for the value that they provided to so many of us.
I often think of myself as an undercover mystic. I'm a spy going into not enemy territory, but the unknown territory when I'm going into corporate. I don't usually openly share what I just shared with you. There are ways to talk about it. It's purpose. The purpose is huge and most people, it's amazing, do not have a clear purpose. It’s something that's a higher calling that pulls them forward in their lives. Instead of reacting to what's happening and to the past, which a lot of people are, they're being pulled by their future state and creating that as they go from a positive inspirational point. To me, that's as spiritual as meditating.
Perhaps more so. I've heard Dan Harris of the 10 Percent Happier Podcast and his book 10% Happier talk about the purpose of meditation is not to be a better meditator. The purpose of meditation is to do whatever it is we do out in the world or whatever we're called to do and do it better and more clearly, make better decisions, etc. I love the way you're putting that. That's lovely and practical. What a great combination, lovely and practical.
Thank you. As I said, my calling is practical spirituality. I love the mystical aspect of all of that and have had some beautiful mystical experiences. If it doesn't function in the world, especially the Western World, unless you're going to go sitting in a mountain of India, it's got to be practical and functional. How do you make loving a practical reality? How do you make forgiveness, understanding, tolerance, and acceptance? People have very different points of view. To me, there's so much divisiveness happening on the planet right now that the call is to step into not agreeing, but at least understanding.
People are doing the best they can at any moment with what they're dealing with, and all the positioning is based on pain, not on loving and having understanding for that. It doesn't mean you have to participate with it but at least you don't condemn them for it. You don't judge them for it. You go, “They are walking their path learning what they need to learn in their own timing.” How do you corral a team who have differences? How do you work with that? How do you lift them and help them rise to a higher perspective with themselves and with each other? A lot of that has to do with undoing the stories they've told themselves and creating new stories.
There is so much divisiveness happening on the planet right now. Everyone must do their best to understand others not based on pain but loving and understanding.
I so appreciate the way you're bringing compassion and openness to a practical place of healing, application, doing, and being better. Thank you. That's lovely. I feel we could talk for another hour or two. We can and it'll be over a glass of California wine somewhere. I would love to continue this conversation in some form. As we close here, how do people learn more about the work that you do? Where can they reach you? Let's do a little bit of a plug here, please.
This is my approach to marketing, which is very unusual. I give it up to the higher power saying, “Bring to me what's mine to do and what isn’t mine, let it pass me by.” The good news is I've been in the world of corporate and at large for a number of decades. Most of my work right now is referral. If you want to check me out, go to BoyerShift.com. That's my web page. It was the web page I needed to update it. I think it's more oriented towards coaching, although it has some of the group work that I do. I do both. I do individual coaching, executive coaching, team coaching, and workshops, developing soft skills, which are hard skills, people skills, listening, dealing with conflict, etc.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and thank you for your friendship. The conversation continues.
Thank you for inviting me. It’s great questions and a wonderful conversation. Thank you for your work in getting this idea, aspect, and focus out into the world of business.
Thank you.